SPEAKER_01: 0:00

You have to choose action first. Sitting around reading, researching, chat GPT-ing, LLM therapy-ing, all this information you have is fine, but it's the equivalent if you just read and watched every book and video on how to swim and you don't know how to swim. Nothing in the world is going to prepare you for getting out to the ocean than jumping in the water. Rich, being extraordinary comes at a price. You and I definitely know that. But what I'm seeing more online and the further we dive into our community is this obsession with people wanting to be like other people who are considered sickos, goaded. But I think the more normal term would be just human beings that are one-on-one in their respective field. And what we talked about off- air, which we thought would make a great episode, was this price that you have to pay for being extraordinary. And this idea of a lot of people in our community, a lot of young men going the route of, fuck it, no plan B. I'm going all in. Now, we talked about this. We're not against that. But Eri Rose... comes with some thorns. And I think that's something we wanted to discuss today. I don't know if you have anything to share on how the subject came up.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

Yeah, I was casually watching a video on Elon Musk and they were asking him, who are the people you admire? And he mentioned Larry Page, the folks who founded Google. And then he mentioned Jeff Bezos. And he said Jeff Bezos was interesting because he also has a space And, you know, he was saying how he admires really smart people. But, you know, I think when you think about the Elon Musk of the world, the Jeff Bezos of the world, the Michael Jordans, the Kobe Bryans, all these people are great because of the sacrifices they've made to become great. You know, and I feel like most people, when they look at them, they just look at them as a byproduct of their success. And it's sort of like the end result of who they were and who they became. But Michael Jordan famously got cut from, I think it was like a varsity college team. Kobe had like airball moments in the 90s and he wasn't like, you know, the nicest. Elon Musk almost went bankrupt in like 2008 and, you know, rebounded and went on to found many incredible companies. So their path to success hasn't always been easy. It's a Yeah, I think

SPEAKER_01: 3:00

the phrasing is, no plan B, burn the boats, right? And what you're saying is, When you do enough research beyond the surface or you get to learn somebody as a celebrity after they've made their accomplishments, you have no idea what they sacrificed on many levels to even get to the point where you know their name. I think the photo of Jeff Bezos in that little office with all the junk around him, he doesn't look healthy. He's definitely bald. And I think it was like in his early 30s. He looked run down. That is the level of sacrifice from that point all the way till he got to his 40s when he actually became relevant enough to be the guy who created Amazon.com, the store that you can buy anything from. To be Bezos now, you would have to sacrifice everything that Bezos sacrificed then. And that was just the gray area that we wanted to unpack today. It's like, From Kanye to Serena Williams to Elon Musk to Joe Rogan to one of your favorites, the physical strength training guru god of all of them.

SPEAKER_00: 4:20

Oh, like David Goggins? Yeah, David

SPEAKER_01: 4:22

Goggins. The level of sacrifice, I think that's his whole campaign, right? It's like you have no idea what I'm sacrificing in order to even conquer the demons that I'm running from, let alone inspire you. That comes at a cost. No plan B comes at a cost.

SPEAKER_00: 4:38

Yeah. Yes. Sacrifice and the discipline that it takes to, you know, like you said, burn the boats, burn the ships. There's no life vests. No, not giving yourself a way out, no escape path and say, I'm following this very linear one path goal to achieve, you know, whatever it is that I want to achieve. And I will say on the pursuit of greatness, bro, that there is no linear path. Like these folks are still figuring it out as they go about accomplishing their mission. It's crazy. It's easy to look at someone who's been successful and see all their errors and all their mistakes and be like, oh yeah, I wonder why he didn't do... Hindsight is 20-20. When we look at the MJ documentary, The Last Dance, you can see every sort of different era of Michael Jordan and how he had to deal with the press and the scrutiny about the gambling in his life and the hurdles of what it was to be a celebrity and be Michael Jordan at that time. And it wasn't easy for him.

SPEAKER_01: 5:51

I think the question we're saying is like, are you sure you want what you're saying you want? And Rich and I, as two men in our late 30s, I'm closer to 40 than you are. I think there is a balance that comes with it, with that obsession and that delusion. that you think you have towards your goal. And I love that you brought up the Jordan documentary because I don't know if anyone has seen this, but I stumbled upon his Hall of Fame speech. Do you know about this? No, I don't. In his Hall of Fame speech, it's like a... I mean, obviously, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. I don't give a fuck what your opinion is. If you want to write it in the comments, feel free. Kobe fans, Jordan fans, LeBron fans, you can have that debate with one of your mothers because you're not having that debate with me. All I know is one of the most legendary retirement speeches was for the greatest basketball player of all time. And if you've ever seen a Hall of Fame speech, it means you're being inducted to the Hall of Fame, which is essentially what this whole episode is about. You're being goaded. You are one of one. You're part of a select group of people that are professionals. And in his Hall of Fame speech, this dude proceeded for 17 minutes to flame every person that doubted him from the age of 16 all the way to his last day in the NBA. Rich, it was one of the most, for me, it was motivational because I like being in that mode. I get excited when I see people that are competitive. But it just showed how fucked up his brain is. And he took this moment where all his peers were cheering for him and they were excited about the greatest player of all time being inducted to the Hall of Fame into being a staff member. statue of foreverness. And this dude walked down every person that doubted him all the way from his middle school coach to the dude that got to start over him in high school that he had resentment for the rest of his life. He had one of his greatest rivals sit next to him during the speech just so he could shit on him. I don't think you understand the level of psycho that is really in the brains of a lot of these people that are extraordinary and one of one. And I could speak to my profession in the music business. I don't like talking about the artists I work with because I don't think it's fair to them on my personal platform. But you can do one Google and figure out who I've either been around or who I've worked with. These guys' level of dedication and competition for this finite game of being number one on the Billboard charts is a very fucked up game. And it consumes these guys and these girls in a way that most people won't be able to understand they are obsessed with being the best in their field and unfortunately the way a lot of these systems are set up is that there could only be one Amazon in that category there could only be one Facebook there could only be one Uber notice that I named all those companies and you would have to Google who their competition is it's Lyft by the way it was MySpace and I don't know who the fuck competes with Amazon Alibaba, like, who's second of Amazon?

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

Probably Walmart.

SPEAKER_01: 9:18

Walmart. Winner takes all. Games require you to be insanely dedicated. And that is a double-edged sword. And that's something, Rich, I know you wanted to talk about. That comes at a cost, including guys like Elon Musk, who I know you follow his career very thoroughly.

SPEAKER_00: 9:39

Yeah, I know Elon Musk famously, he has a deranged daughter who wants nothing to do with him. And a couple of his ex-wives have spoken illy about him. And that's part of the sacrifice you make when you're reaching greatness and building five, six different businesses. You're unfortunately not going to have time for your family. And that has gone on with other athletes or famous people. I know famously, Steve Jobs had a terrible relationship with his daughter and it's docked Terrible.

SPEAKER_01: 10:18

Terrible. opportunity of technology when it arose in all decades that he was alive he always was ahead of the curve that's a crazy combination of an executive and someone that's just a true visionary but you know what kind of piece of shit you got to be to have a seven-year-old daughter deny that she exists when you know she exists you're a multi-millionaire this is the best part he named his computer after the apple one or the mac one he named the second computer the lisa His daughter, his biological daughter's name is Lisa. He denied her until she was about eight, but he proceeded to name his computer after his first daughter. And then when he got confronted on it, he was like, no, Lisa stands for L-I-S. And he made up an acronym. The dude is burnt out. Think about that Jordan story. Think about that Steve Jobs story. I can get into Kanye. These guys are not wired the same way most people are wired. for the sacrifice that comes with this level of excellence.

SPEAKER_00: 11:45

Yeah, all while we record this on a MacBook Pro.

SPEAKER_01: 11:51

I'm saying, thank you, Steve Jobs, but I'm sure his daughter, well, I'm sure she's happy now, but somebody should check in on Lisa. See how she's doing.

SPEAKER_00: 12:01

Yeah, but that's the dynamic, right? When you look at all these people, MJ, Kobe, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, or anybody who you admire or are consuming self-help content content from is like, what are you admiring these people for? Right. I think you should be very selective about what it is about them that you like, because the other side of the spectrum is that, by the way, there's a lot of things about these individuals that are bad and that you shouldn't follow. But naturally, they've made a lot of sacrifices to get to where they got to. But it's important to be selective about what you admire about that person. Don't just follow an Elon Musk and say, I want to be like Elon and embody everything that embodies Elon Musk because then you're going to be sleeping two hours a day, right? You're probably not going to be showering. You're going to be consumed building this one product. You're going to isolate yourself from the world. Your relationships are going to be strained because of it. And it's just not a good path to go down.

SPEAKER_01: 13:02

Yeah, Rich, I think one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation for me is that, and I don't mean to disagree with the point that we're making for the entire show, but it's, Trust me, if... Rich's family watched or listened to this episode, or my family watched and listened to this episode, they'd probably laugh because they'd say, these guys are hypocrites. Because I barely see them around at family events. Most of their family doesn't know anything about them because they're not participating in every one of our cousins' birthday parties. They've left the family and moved to different locations and are not around us. I don't have a lot of friends anymore. Same for me. I used to have a lot of friends when I was younger. So we're speaking from the perspective of people who have sacrificed a lot to gain the little bit of success that we were able to gain. But that is like the difference between not signing up for a marathon and being in a marathon. Being in a marathon is just to be a part of the selected group of people that are great. But there is another level to being the person who wins the marathon. that is sicko mode that is extra extraordinary levels of dedication and sacrifice you have to put into your craft to get to that level and I believe the point you just made is very relevant be careful who your idols are because you're only seeing them after they hold the trophy up and the confettities falling on them and they're popping champagne but the price that I noticed in my late 30s is you can win the marathon of life all by yourself with zero distractions in monk mode or on your stoicism journey where it's only you and the prize, you and your goal. But what happens a lot, man, is when you finally obtain that goal, you get the Ferrari, you get the 8% body fat, 12 pounds of muscle, you're yoked, you're the strongest guy in your high high school, a lot of the times those guys are drinking champagne alone at the finish line. Be careful with who you idolize because you don't know what their lives are like beyond that moment of them holding up the trophy or drinking the champagne. A lot of motherfuckers that are that successful are really lonely or they're broken. They're tied to their identity so crazy that they can't be anything else other than the person they project to the world. So again, it comes at a cost. These roses have thorns. Just be aware that they have thorns.

SPEAKER_00: 15:49

Yeah. And to be clear, we're not saying to not pursue your purpose, not pursue greatness. I think that's what we're trying to do with this platform, right? And we encourage everyone to take increment steps to accomplish a goal or be on your journey or reach whatever level of greatness you define as greatness, right? Like whatever greatness means to you. That's good,

SPEAKER_01: 16:11

yeah. Like an internal scorecard. I love that. You're saying, what does that mean to you, not to the outside world?

SPEAKER_00: 16:18

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 16:19

So one thing I did want to tell you, I proposed this question earlier and it kind of made you glitch was what if Jensen at his age came up to you and said dad I'm going to go full monk mode I'm going to focus on getting stronger and getting smarter so I can get more friends and get a girlfriend by my senior year of high school but from this point forward I'm going to be in monk mode what would be your response to that

SPEAKER_00: 16:47

first of all I think you said it best earlier you said not even monks are rate in monk mode. I hate how the internet tries to label things that were already in practice. That's just a bullshit term for relentlessness or discipline, right? If you told me, dad, I'm going to be disciplined. I'm going to work out. I'm going to have this routine. I'm going to have this regimen. And these are the goals that I'm trying to hit in this amount of time or timeframe, then I'd be like, sure, go after it. I'll support you in whatever you want. But this idea of like, I'm going to go in monk mode. I'm I'm going to put myself in a quiet room for eight hours a day and only study and not talk to anyone and solely focus on my goal. That's bullshit. You know what I mean? You know where I've seen this a lot? In Silicon Valley. There's a lot of kids that say, oh, I'm going to move to Silicon Valley. I'm going to lock in and build a startup and not talk to anyone. Just me and my coder, co-founder, just us two building in stuff. They call it building in stuff. And what happens is when it's time to go to market and you need to sell your product, you have no idea how to communicate the value you bring or what you've built because you've put yourself in isolation for so long while you were so-called building this product in stealth mode. or that social skill muscle that you need to actually go out and sell something. It's kind of counterintuitive. Isn't the same thing to

SPEAKER_01: 18:29

be said about the second half of Jensen's alleged monk mode journey of getting really strong and focusing on his business, his solopreneur business. Everything that is being sold by the internet is about doing it by yourself. Why is that? We made this point on several episodes already. It's trick to make sure that you're not getting any outside feedback. So you're constantly going to this one person on social media to get your dopamine, your direction, and your monthly payment for whatever the fuck it is that they're selling you. So this idea that you don't socialize or you don't test your product in the real world is as relevant as a guy who only focuses on getting strong, fit, visibly like stronger like bigger but his ultimate goal that underlines all of it is not that he wants to be an Olympian or a power lifter he wants to be attractive to women right so rather than addressing the most urgent need that you have which is man I got no bitches I never talk to girls when they're out I don't have friends that put me on to other girls I would much rather take this long ass path in a other direction that's going to lead me to a goal that's to get stronger that eventually will lead me to women but just like the young man that created the tech startup in silicon valley and built a product in the darkness of his room what was the phrase that you said

SPEAKER_00: 20:07

building and stealth

SPEAKER_01: 20:09

building and stealth getting strong and stealth if you don't apply what you learn against reality and you don't push up against reality you'll never know if what you're building can hold itself up in real life. So like an oak tree, there's a quick Twitter thread that I looked through. They tried to recreate oak trees because they're such important pieces of our society that create stuff that we need. So they try to replicate oak trees in a biodome. They really try to manufacture them and speed up the manufacturing. After 10 years, of creating these fake oak trees, the minute they put it out into reality, they wouldn't bend, they wouldn't give. Why? Because they weren't tested by reality, which is wind, rain, elements. That's what makes something docile and have the ability to flex, but also stand strong whenever something happens. I think the same could be said about products. If you don't test your product in the real life market, you don't even know if your product needs to exist. Same could be said about a guy who is insecure about how he feels about talking to women. You don't know what you have to offer until you test it against reality. Reality is king. It's a phrase I'm always going to go back to. And I think this is the same as the point that you're making.

SPEAKER_00: 21:36

Yeah. And you know what's interesting? And we could definitely dive in. It's like, what's the balance? Because we do encourage you to pursue greatness, but at the same time, do it in a healthy manner, right? Like not reach burnout, not sacrifice relationships with your family or your friends or go into this monk mode and isolate yourself from the world. And then when it's time to present your product or go to market or show your six pack, it's like you don't know how to be social. There has to be a balance. And I think that's probably the most interesting part is like, how do you strike that balance?

SPEAKER_01: 22:14

I mean, I don't know. That is something that I definitely struggle with. I'll be honest with you. Me too. And one commitment that I made when I was when we were going over this topic it was tough for me to fully play the other side and try to be the counterweight to these extraordinary people that we idolize because I idolize a lot of them too but I think I have the discernment to distinguish what is the persona like the character that Kobe Bryant plays in order to be a marketable product and the reality of his life after he steps off the stage that is a basketball court and that's something that I always struggled with when i was young and i would say always err on the side of doing more over committing over delivering putting in more time in your craft but when it comes at a cost that's the balance is like you need good sleep you need love in your life you need people around you that care about you you need you need friends you need to socialize you need to get out because most of the time if you don't have that you're just truly living in a vacuum

SPEAKER_00: 23:17

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 23:17

and i think that's the balance now one thing i thought about when i was putting this like the brief together for this show was, man, I did move to California with no real idea of how it would go for me. And nobody in my family has left the tri-state area, like that immediate New York, New Jersey, Florida pocket. And me coming to California was a big risk. And I didn't really have the biggest social circle out here, but it paid off. And what was the consequence of that? I lost a lot of my friendships back home. I lost a lot of connections to people back home. But But I did get to the next level of my life, which personally, I'm very excited and happy that I was able to do it. But I'd be lying if I said I wish I had more of a connection with a lot of people that were back home that I grew up with when I'm on social media and I see people starting their families or old friends linking up. And that's something I sacrificed. Now, would I trade it for the level of happiness and content that I got from achieving my goals and my career and my personal life? Probably not. But it is something that I had to think about.

SPEAKER_00: 24:24

Yeah. Oh, that's good. You know what made me think when we were talking about be selective about what you idolize people for? I always make rap references because we're big hip hop heads. And I thought about somebody like Jay-Z, right? Jay-Z notoriously sold crack and Marcy Projects back in the 90s. That's like one version of Jay-Z. But then there's also like the... 100 million Roc Nation deal Jay-Z with Live Nation, right? So it's like, which one are you going to admire? Are you going to admire the slinging crack Jay-Z or the Roc Nation deal with Live Nation? Another one is like 50 Cent. Like, are you going to be enamored by the getting shot nine times story 50 Cent or the 100 mil vitamin water deal that he famously did, right? And it's like, that's the choice that we have when we look at these individuals that we admire. It's like there's a flawed version of them and there's like the success story of them. Fortunately, we're on the outside looking in so we get to see all the trials and tribulations that they go through to ultimately become the success story celebrity. But the beauty about being on the outside looking in is you get to choose what core component of that individual you choose to admire.

SPEAKER_01: 25:48

Yeah, I think what you're saying is just be mindful of which version of the person you choose to model yourself after. Because humans, ourself included, Rich, you evolve over time. You might think, like if you had to sit with 18-year-old Rich's goals right now at your age, 37, you'd probably laugh at half of the shit that 18-year-old Rich wanted, right? What did you want at 18 that right now you'd laugh at? You'd be like, there's no way that that was even a part of my plan right now.

SPEAKER_00: 26:20

Just simple things. a car, just money, better clothes. I think when you're 18 years old, you're definitely looking at more of a popularity. What are my friends doing? How can I look cool amongst my peers? That's kind of like your mentality when you're 18. I wasn't thinking about going to college. I was thinking about how to build a business, how to get rich, just very naive things that a lot of 18-year-olds think. Now that I look back, I'm like, damn, I wish my level of thinking was more structured. I wish I chose a specific path. I wish I didn't give myself a plan A, B, or C. No plan B. Just pick one path to go down in because I feel like my focus would have been a lot more linear on a path to a more successful career,

SPEAKER_01: 27:12

let's say. It's funny you just said it again. When I hear the phrase, no plan B, and I think about an 18-year-old Justin, I think that sounds cool. No plan B. I'm all in.

SPEAKER_00: 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:26

I'm focused. 18 year old Justin, if I go through my old Twitter account or Facebook, I probably have quotes like that on my Facebook. And now at 39 years old, I think about someone that age telling me like, I'm all in on this one bet. No plan B. I respect it. But in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, damn, if they don't make it to the NBA or by the time they turn 21 and they realize they're only going to be five foot six at the very most, it's going to be a sad transition when you have to hit that wall of reality and realize that you probably should have had a plan A.5, not B, but something that was like a safety net in the event that plan A didn't pan out. See, this is the new on to this conversation. I can't hate on the energy behind No Plan B, but Sometimes you need a plan 1.5 because if plan one doesn't check out, you got to have at least a little speedboat on the side of your yacht in case that motherfucker hits an iceberg and you got to get out of there. I'm in conflict. I really am because I like the energy behind it, but I don't like the idea of netting out at zero. That doesn't help anybody.

SPEAKER_00: 28:49

Yeah, but I do like the no plan B ideology. I think where we're in conflict is you have to be realistic about that plan. Delusion and reality. That's something we should talk about. There's a fine line between delusion and reality. Before you go all in, put all the poker chips in the front and go all in on your dream, there has to be a level of achievable, tangible, actionable goals behind that plan B. You can't just wake up one day and be like, I'm going to be the next Jay-Z. I'm going to be the next Lil Wayne. These people are a one of one. You're not going to wake up in the morning and say, I'm going to make myself a one of one. That's not how this works. You have to be realistic about what it is that you're doubling down on, how you do that. I think you have to identify what your superpower is. I think me and you have spoken a lot about this off air, but we constantly have this idea about our superpower and we feel like everyone has them. whether that be you're really good at reading or you're really good at writing or you're a good singer or you're very good at gymnastics or whatever it is. We feel like everyone has their superpower and you kind of just have to extract that out of yourself and say, damn, I love business, right? It's all I do. I trust my decision making. Let me double down on that. I mean, you could talk about what you've doubled down on and what you've identified in your life. That's paid dividends over time.

SPEAKER_01: 30:30

One thing you said that stuck out to me was you can't be one of one following a whole other grown man's blueprint of their life. Time, place, opportunities, technology, region, just so many factors that go into one person having once in a lifetime luck on their side And their preparation combined leading to us getting a Steve Jobs or a Bill Gates or a Mark Zuckerberg. Mark Zuckerberg is the founder of Facebook that turned into Meta. But when I reread a book that was explaining how all these younger guys became multi-billionaires in Silicon Valley, it's funny. If you change one part of their life, they're not that person anymore. So it's this weird coincidence of events that happen mixed with being prepared for that opportunity that make these people one of one. If I'm not mistaken, and I'm sure the nerds will correct us, Rich and I are not nerds. We're just lightly interested in a lot of subjects. Mark Zuckerberg was going to sell Facebook to Yahoo if Yahoo would have came with a proper offer when it was only a few billion dollars. And I think what Yahoo did last minute was they changed the selling price just because their stock had went down the quarter before. So the value of what they wanted to buy Facebook for depreciated because they were trying to mirror where their actual stock was at. So it was the same number, but it had just depreciated over a quarter. And only because the number was off by, I think, a few hundred million or a billion, Mark Zuckerberg pulled the offer and decided, you know what? We don't need the funding. I'm just going to keep going. Now, it's literally the most profitable, one of the most profitable companies in the world. And we can retroactively say, man, Mark Zuckerberg knew the whole time, but that's bullshit. He didn't. He was ready to sell his company. And if he would have did it then, we wouldn't know who he is today. There's little decisions that make somebody goaded in their category. Going back to Michael Jordan, another sliding doors moment of another reality was, In his retirement speech, Michael Jordan said, I mean, my mother is five foot six. My dad is five foot eight. I was the only person in my family above six foot. I'm six foot five. I don't know why that happened. But if my brother was a foot taller, he would be standing on this platform talking about why he's the greatest NBA player of all time. And I would just be another guy. So don't forget in history when you go back that a lot of random shit happens that leads to these people being demigods. And you can't follow their exact blueprint page for page because they're a whole different person from a whole different time. They capitalize on a whole different opportunity. And I just want to zoom a little bit deeper into that point, Rich, because this idea of being a one of one is impossible if you're following somebody else's whole life script. And you touched on it and I just wanted to double down on it because I find that a lot of the time that a lot of younger people spend online is trying to download to other people's blueprints to their success. And the truth is, you can get moderately successful off of that, but you're not going to be Olympian gold medalist level of great in your category if you're following a whole ass other human's life plan because it's exclusive to them. So I know that's not what you asked me, but I did want to mention that because I think it's important to understanding what the point you were trying to make, which is Justin, what makes you unique and what was the benefit of doubling down on it? That's what you were asking pretty

SPEAKER_00: 34:34

much. Right. Like I mentioned, you're not going to wake up in the morning to be a one-of-one, right? But to my earlier point, you can extract different success stories from many different people that influence you and bring that back and bake that into whatever your blueprint is or is going to be. That's kind of like the advantage of being on on the outside looking in. As you can see, damn, I like this, these characteristics about Elon Musk, his relentlessness. I like Mark Zuckerberg's decision-making, right? Or I like Michael Jordan's discipline. Or I like Kobe Bryant's mambo mentality and how he puts himself in a particular mental state. There's a lot of great things that you can extract from many different people that influence you, but you're not going to wake up in the morning and and be a one of one. It's just not realistic.

SPEAKER_01: 35:32

And the one of one is you. I think that's the point we're trying to make. You are the only one of one. You could be the son of one of these people. Think about it. Michael Jordan has a son. Respectfully, didn't come close to whatever his dad was able to accomplish. Tom Hanks has a son. We all know Tom Hanks' son as being someone that is an absolute fool. Someone that has no identity and decided to co-op Caribbean identity as a white man as some sort of internet prank that has been going on forever. Tom Hanks is a one of one professionally trained actor. I watched a documentary on Ric Flair recently and it was one of the saddest things I've ever watched because Ric Flair was a one of one to wrestling and his energy and his persona and just this cocktail of a human being was able to cut through something a field where not a lot people could cut through, which is like wrestling, you have to play a character. Ric Flair has kids and they all tried to play Ric Flair. Even one of them in the documentary passed away trying to be like his dad. If it doesn't net one-to-one from mother to son, from mother to daughter, what makes you think it's going to connect one-to-one for a person that you have nothing like outside of your admiration for that person? So find your natural drift. Find something that you're curious about and you get excited about and mix it with all these other positive traits from people that you admire I believe that's what you were trying to say I just wanted to bring that point home

SPEAKER_00: 37:12

yeah yeah I agree like just sticking to the wrestling topic rest in peace Hulk Hogan but if you wake up in the morning you're like man I really love wrestling I want to pursue this career I want to be like Hogan like oh man do you know how much steroids that man took throughout his life. Do you know how much of a beating his body took from all the drugs he was taking and the career path that he chose? I think he died from a heart attack. Really? I don't know if they attested his heart attack to any of the drugs that he took or anything like that, but he's had a very difficult life when it comes to the things he's put his body through. Is he a larger than life persona? Yes. Is he a household name? Yes. But behind the curtains, there's this whole other aspect to him and who he was that that's not something you should be idolizing or pursuing.

SPEAKER_01: 38:08

Yeah, not at all. I mean, being a celebrity is a whole other conversation, and that definitely comes at a cost. You can't turn on your computer today and buy the live streaming book pack, the Wi-Fi, and walk around Midtown Manhattan or one of the boroughs live streaming your life and assume that you're going to be Kai Sanat. It just doesn't work that way. I love watching these videos of these online celebrities when they upload their first piece of content. And then you look at what they turned into six years later. It's just like anything else. It's like that photo of Travis Scott performing to like five people.

SPEAKER_00: 38:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:47

And then you see, it's all a journey. These maps are unique to these people. But to your point, Rich, that's parts of that journey that you can pull from as inspiration, but you're not going to and be able to duplicate exactly the way they did. One thing I did want to get into with you was it's probably appropriate we talk about how we started Goodfella Media. And I know that subject is a little sensitive to both of us because that's how me and you not only built our first project with four other co-founders, Q, Knight, AR, Kimmy, who were there with us when we built the foundation of Goodfella Media. I think that was the first time we stepped into what made us unique and we found our natural drift and we were able to build something in high school, right? Or right out of high school?

SPEAKER_00: 39:39

It was right out of high school. I think we were around 18 or 19. And yeah, man, we built a pretty successful media company that consisted of like a YouTube channel. This is like early YouTube. Pre-ads. They didn't even have ads. Pre-Mr. Beast. Wow. when Mr. Beast was uploading his first video. We were already up there. We had our own music blog, which was, that was the big thing back then, the blog era. And fortunately, we had this radio station, this college radio station that we had the liberty to sort of use for two hours. And, you know, it was dope the way we came together because we initially started as a side project. And then we said to ourselves, well, wait a minute, like there's a lot of components here that we can use to prepare and actually build a brand out of this. And that's exactly what we did. And a shout out to you for seeing what everyone else was good at and saying, okay, these are the pieces that I need to sort of build this brand up. And I think what you saw in me was like, man, this guy, Rich, he's a planner. He's someone who can put the pieces to the puzzle together. He can bring structure around what we're doing. And when I came on board, We started the website. We started the YouTube. We started to reach out to rappers and celebrities early on. And they started responding to us and they were willing to make the hour drive from Midtown Manhattan all the way to New Brunswick, New Jersey, just to meet with us. And it was dope, man. I'm glad that we did it, but that was sort of like our first taste to what it takes to build a brand, what it takes to work together. And honestly, like what it takes for you to find what you're good at. Like we had no real business building a brand and a company at 18, 19 years old.

SPEAKER_01: 41:34

Yeah. And our high school wasn't doing us no favors and they weren't putting us in a position where we could actually learn those skills. Right. So you're right. This little side project was the beginning of us finding our natural drift, things that we were good at that were transferable in the real world and on a professional level. Because it's ironic that it's like 20 plus years ago, the thing that we did as a hobby turned into probably like the first real thing that was on our resume outside of like working at Whole Foods.

SPEAKER_00: 42:03

Yeah. And now that we could look back on them, you think about those moments and those were sort of like the nucleus that sparked what the next 20 years of our lives would look like. So you did- 100%. 10,000 hours of like interviews with musicians and different artists. You ended up working in the music industry, becoming a music marketing executive. I focused a lot on the tech side of our business because building the YouTube, building our online presence. I turned that into like a tech career that ultimately transitioned into like a cybersecurity career. So early on, we kind of doubled down on what we thought made us great and our sort of superpower. And that journey took us into where we ultimately ended up today.

SPEAKER_01: 42:49

Yeah. And I mean, the sacrifice that came with it was something we were willing to give at that time, but it didn't come at the cost of over a celebrity that had already done it. We just kind of drifted to something that we naturally gravitated towards. At the time, I think back on it, I don't know, I'd be curious to know what you thought about it, but for me, I remembered sitting with everybody and always having that energy of like, man, I know I'm a host of, well, I was a co-host of the show with Q and Knight, But I always felt like I would much rather be behind the scenes pushing this from a business standpoint. And I definitely got that ideology from people that were around me that I grifted off of their skillset. And that's my father and my brother and my mother who had this hustler's mentality, but they were very charismatic. And there were people that were easy to talk to and people that can get anyone to move in the direction they wanted them to. So if you reverse engineer a lot of these skills that I was able to borrow from, whether it be DNA or just watching my family, it's leadership skills. My mom, my brother, my father, all my uncles, very loud and demonstrative personalities that it's impossible for any holiday to happen in my family because we have no Indians in our family. It's just none but chiefs walking around telling each other what to do. That's why there's so much conflict. Sales skills. Being persuasive. My family, you've been around them, Rich. They're always high energy. They're always complimenting people. These are natural skills that kind of came from the house that I lived in. And I was able to transfer them. And I always seen my personal skill set as something that was more of like charismatic, but somebody that can get people to move in a direction. And I always felt that way, but I never could put a label on it. So the greater point here is, you know, saying that there's no plan B and understanding understanding that being extraordinary comes at a cost. The way it starts off is not by the minute the race starts, you just say, all right, I'm not doing anything else. I'm locked in. This is who I am. I'm in monk mode, no plan B. I'm at this point all the way to that. That's a mistake. It's definitely a mistake. It's a mistake because when you first start, you should just get a rough idea of what you're good at and what value you can give to the smaller tribes that you're in. And for someone that's ages 14 all the way to 18, That's something as simple as joining an organization at school, starting something with your friends, and just seeing where the pieces fall naturally versus having this very rigid ideology that you're tied to and you have no other oxygen from the rest of the world, like the oak tree analogy that I made. If the world doesn't test your theories, your theories are flawed out the gate because your theories are not applied in reality. They're just theories. So that's something that I think Rich and I wanted to discuss when we're talking about our good fellow story. And to be clear, Goodfellow wasn't a rinky dink ass media company. We were doing millions of views per month in the pre YouTube era before it was oversaturated. So we were not only able to develop our skillset from working with each other and building something as young men, but we were also able to test out our theories in real time. We weren't just living a roadmap that we found online.

SPEAKER_00: 46:22

Yeah. I love that story because this ties back into the reality versus delusion topic. that we spoke on earlier. Like when we started Goodfella, yes, you were on screen and boots on the ground interviewing these rappers and musicians and ultimately transitioned behind the curtains. But you didn't veer off too far from what the no plan B plan for Justin was, right? It was very much going to be like your majors in communications. That's what you were going to school for. You knew you wanted to be in music. You knew you wanted to be in entertainment. You did probably indirectly give yourself a no plan B plan. And you really didn't deviate too far from that plan.

SPEAKER_01: 47:07

I think the good advice is that it was a combination of both. If I could look back, it was like, it was like a loop, like a feedback loop. Like, what do I think I'm good at? What do I know I'm good at? Let's apply that to reality. And then whatever I got back from the world, I would keep going in that direction. But let's be clear. We come from an area where there's, there wasn't a lot of opportunity. Hudson County, New Jersey in the 90s and the 2000s, a lot of lower income families, not a lot of opportunities. So you kind of have to take what's given to you and then try to figure it out after the fact. So we created something, but we were using our natural skills mixed with the resources we had available. And then you just keep running that formula back every time you get feedback from the world and you keep moving forward. And I think that is the greater point of what we're saying here are you clear on what it is that you're saying about your idols these guys had to sacrifice so much to even get to the point where you know who they are and what you're getting is advice from someone that's already either rich or retired and they're giving you what the top of the mountain looks like versus what climbing the mountain really is like and that is our precaution rich and i are pro hustle. Rich and I are pro missing 33 of your cousin's birthday parties to make sure you achieve whatever goal you have in front of you. I'd be a fucking liar if I said I didn't miss the last 20 birthday parties in my family. But I call my mom when it's her birthday. I text my pops when it's his birthday. I try to be around for my brother and his kids. Outside of that, you might not hear from me. So don't get it twisted. We are insanely dedicated to what we want out of life. And we're not distracted by a At the same time, be careful who your idols are and understand the cost that comes with dedicating and sacrificing everything to only one goal. That is the greater point. Now, Rich, I do want to get into some actionable advice. I put a little quick list together here. Let me know if you have any on your end, but I do want to emphasize if there is a young man out there that's confused by our messaging and he's thinking to himself like, wait, so do I go hard or do I not go hard? I'm confused. Should I be extraordinary or should I just not be as dedicated? How would you play the gray area in this particular episode?

SPEAKER_00: 49:38

I feel like you should be confused.

SPEAKER_01: 49:41

Oh, wow. By the way, you might be the first YouTube personality ever to say that.

SPEAKER_00: 49:46

Bro, because it's real.

SPEAKER_01: 49:47

Aren't you supposed to have it all figured out? Isn't it supposed to be crystal

SPEAKER_00: 49:51

clear? No, we don't. And that's the beauty of it. You should be confused. Listen, just how you stated it. This is a gray area. That's why it's confusing. There's no right or wrong answer. We are saying that you should go hard. You should pursue greatness with caution, right? Be careful who you're being influenced by. Be careful what content you're consuming. On the other end, we're saying don't over-isolate yourself. Don't be close-minded to believe that you can't learn things from outside sources or be influenced by people that are not celebrities. We're saying don't work so hard to the point where you reach burnout and then you can't even finish building the product because you're just so burnt out or you end up selling a product prematurely because you reached burnout and ran out of money and couldn't complete the project. So yeah, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. We don't have all the answers and this is why it's a gray area. There's a fine line between reaching the top of the mountain and understanding how to get there without dying while you get to the top.

SPEAKER_01: 51:06

Yeah. I mean, I couldn't have said it any better myself. So I do want to kind of put a finer point on this part of the podcast, just so the busy or the fucking lazy person could be both or efficient person that's scrolling to the very end of the podcast that wants to know, okay, what are the eight pieces of actionable advice that I can apply for someone that is in the mode of not having a plan B. And our only precaution to this young man that says I have no plan B is understand that being extraordinary comes at a high price. Are you willing to pay that price? So actionable advice number one, Rich, you just said it, I'm going to summarize it, is it's okay to be confused. Nothing difficult is clear on day one. Does that feel right to you?

SPEAKER_00: 52:03

Yeah, it's a gray area for a reason. No, I agree.

SPEAKER_01: 52:07

Actionable advice number two. This is one that I personally took note of. You have to have an action bias. This idea that you're just going to put a picture of Alex Hermosi on your wall and you're going to build a billion dollar empire tomorrow because you have every Alex Hermosi book, you watched all his YouTube videos, and now you're going to build a multi-million dollar small business. I respect it. I watch his videos. I'm sure Rich has come across them too. He's an incredible YouTube personality. But the truth is, Alex Ramosi creates content to create a funnel that's going to allow you to purchase one of his products that he's selling you at the end of the day. The dude is a fucking sniper when it comes to sales. I'm saying, that's cool. Get your information. You need your gurus. You need your guides. You need your books. You need your knowledge. You need your baseline information. But the one thing none of this is ever going to happen without is an action bias. And I think that's crucial when it comes to this subject. You have to choose action first. Sitting around reading, researching, chat GPT-ing, LLM therapy-ing, all this information you have is fine, but it's the equivalent if you just read and watched every book and video on how to swim and you don't know how to swim. Nothing in the world is going to prepare you for getting out to the ocean than jumping in the water. We talked about this in an older episode. Big difference between map and terrain. Map is two-dimensional. It's this. It's a piece of paper. Terrain is going out into the world and seeing what a mountain looks like, seeing how real humans move in a corporate setting, being around the sharks, seeing how the sharks move. The only way you can really educate yourself is by taking action. So I think that's a huge piece of advice that we can share with our community that is important that's number two action bias for sure

SPEAKER_00: 54:09

yeah I think three it's certainly I'm glad you touched on this earlier it was the reality versus delusion if you're gonna double down on a plan B like bro it has to be something realistic you can't just be like I'm gonna be a world famous rapper or I'm gonna make a hundred million in the next five years like how how are you going to do that what is the plan don't double down on some bullshit. You know what I mean? You're wasting your time.

SPEAKER_01: 54:37

Yeah, but Rich, I'm in sicko mode. I'm in sicko mode. I'm locked in.

SPEAKER_00: 54:41

By the way, yes, you can be locked in on the wrong shit. That's a thing, right? You could double down in the completely wrong direction. You could say, I'm going to make six figures and then go to the streets and sling crack and make the six figures. That's a choice. You could absolutely make six figures the legal way or the

SPEAKER_01: 55:03

illegal way. I have a question and it has to do with reality versus delusion because I think I can make the point both ways. What is your response to a young man ages between 15 to 22 that says, I hear you on this reality versus delusion point, Rich, but I'm not about to take a nine to five when I know I can make millions of dollars being a creator or being a live streamer or being someone that can make it online. Because I feel like I can make the argument for both, but what you're saying is be aware of what you're betting everything on. If your plan A with no plan B is this, then I need you to have an idea of what reality versus delusion is for that particular decision you just made.

SPEAKER_00: 55:49

Yeah, and what I would say to that young person is it's a risk versus reward, right? Like, are you in the position where you can take a high amount of risk in the hopes of getting a high reward? If you're somebody who's young and you're living at home and your parents are paying all the bills and you don't really have bills like that, you don't have student loans and you really don't have to produce a lot of income, you can absolutely take the high, like bump that risk meter all the way to 10 because you can afford to take risks and fail and iterate in the hopes of getting that big payout or that big reward. But that particular situation is not realistic if you're 22, 23, 24. and your girlfriend's pregnant and you have to find an apartment and you have to feed this new baby that you guys are about to have. That's a different reality for that person. So very much calculate that risk and reward and it's case by case. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_01: 56:52

I think that's great advice. I have a good number four that's associated to what you just said. Internal wins are the real wins, not the outside world's idea of a win And I think that's a 200, 300 level piece of advice for this very 100 level conversation. And I think that's something that I just learned in the last five years. A part of me still gets upset that I didn't accomplish every single thing I wanted to accomplish. And a part of me, this is probably my ego, it tells me, yeah, that's a fucking coat, Justin. You didn't accomplish the goal and now you changed the goal. So I don't even know if I'm saying this, with the most clarity for our community because it's something that I'm conflicted with. But I do like the language and the idea of an internal win. What's the win for you? What was to be gained on the path and the journey that you chose? Not a win to the outside world. That one feels right. I'm not going to lie. At 39 years old, I'm starting to come to peace with, yeah, you set out with a goal in mind because it's the mountaintop. Why wouldn't you try to get there? But the reality is is a lot can be learned on your way to that goal and you could develop yourself in ways that you didn't even understand you were capable of on your way to a goal that pushed you past comfort but if you're at peace with how far you've gone and now you have a different life path but based on your age or someone you met or you know what I'm going through right now with my personal life it's okay to adjust based on what feels like an internal win to you and that's a tough one because you only you know. You get what I'm saying? Like only you know what the win is. Now, if you cheated yourself and you didn't work hard enough and your self-esteem is low because you know to yourself that you cheated yourself and you didn't work hard enough and then you change the goal, that's a little bit different.

SPEAKER_00: 58:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 58:51

I feel like I haven't unpacked that one, but that's kind of what I'm feeling like these days, to be honest

SPEAKER_00: 58:56

with you. No, I like that. And this is definitely a 300 level perspective. This is for our older community members The way I would rationalize that is that everyone's reality is different, is unique, is proprietary to you. And to your point, what success may look like to you on a day-to-day might not be the same as what success looks like to me. Our point of reference is all the different failures that we've had throughout our lives. And that's the data set that we're operating under. I've had my sets of failures. You've had your sets of failures. But they're different, right? And that's part of what makes us And I love that, by the way, because you should celebrate those internal wins because that is part of what's going to propel you to continue going forward and continue motivating you.

SPEAKER_01: 59:46

You know, what really helped me with that was really getting knee deep into the origin of a lot of tech founders, more modern tech founders. And then I kind of got into like people that built businesses in the 1900s, but it was more of the last 30 years and how these young men got rich. And I think the number is like 75 to 80% of blue chip multi-billion dollar exit companies. I think like over 75% of them started as something totally different than what they eventually sold as. Example, PayPal was originally an email currency exchange company. According to Peter Thiel and Elon Musk, They wanted to create what essentially is Bitcoin now. They wanted to turn currency exchange into an all internet thing. And what they got was PayPal. And if you know what PayPal is, it's a version of that idea. It's probably one eighth of the original business plan. The reason why MySpace was, and anybody who doesn't know what MySpace is, it was Facebook before Facebook. It was originally a media software storage website, and it turned into a social media platform.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:04

Uber was supposed to be a luxury car service where you can get private cars so you can do it on your phone and it eventually turned into ride sharing amongst human beings Amazon was a bookstore

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:15

yeah

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:16

Amazon was a bookstore think about that like all these companies what they turned out to become versus what they were I think at some point had to deal with the filter of reality and adjusting yourself while you're chasing that original goal but adjust the goal to be something that's more truthful to what's happening in the moment. And again, as I say that, I feel like I'm still coping with this idea that I wanted to be the greatest music executive of all time. But my plan pivoted on my way to that goal because I'm starting to see it more clearly because I'm 39 years old, 20 years into my business. And I realized, damn, 18-year-old Justin wanted to fly to Florida, but he ended up in Hawaii. Or 18-year-old Justin wanted to fly to California, California, but ended up in Hawaii. And I think that's a matter of just making the adjustments with new information while I'm taking flight versus just trying to be perfect from New Jersey all the way to California. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:16

No, it does. And I like those examples you shared. And I don't think we even have to veer that far off if you look at our friendship and how long we've known each other. I think we met at 16, 17. We were both working at Whole Foods Market. And one of the things that you and I connected on personally was self-help. content and we shared an audible account and we would download every month we would put money into the account and download different content and think and grow rich and a whole bunch of like millionaire self-help content and bro we were obsessed about that content and we would share clips and we would share YouTube videos and documentaries and we were completely consumed by this idea of we found content that could make us better humans we're just going to keep consuming and keep getting better and better and better, right? So if you think about us working on sharing that commonality at 16, 17, then we went on to build a media company. We went the music route. We both love music. Then you went on to be a music executive. Then I went on to be a cybersecurity professional. But when we circle back 20 years in the making, we've never stopped consuming this self-help content. We still share clips with each other Right. Like we've still do the things that we used to do when we were 17, 18 years old. And now here we are full circle moment building this failures podcast and failures brand. You

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:46

just sparked a thought, which it's funny. I'm using all these references that are not native to our day to day, but just stuff that I'm impressed by, by young people making billions of dollars. And you were able to summarize our lives to make the point versus someone that is not us to make the point. And I just had a moment of clarity for what we're building here. And that's at 17 years old, when Rich and I were sharing an Audible account, trying to milk as much cheat codes from these self-help books so we can be successful and not fail and find all these cheat codes. 20 plus years later, I think the realization is there are no cheat codes. There's just ass whoopings. while you're pursuing this idea of a goal that you think you want. It's impossible to tell somebody not to drive a Lamborghini or they shouldn't drive a Lamborghini when you're sitting in a Lamborghini. If you've never driven one, that feeling is never going to go away. Same applies to a beautiful woman. Trust me, you don't want a beautiful woman as a girlfriend. It can distract you. It's a lot of maintenance. You go outside with her. People disrespect you. You go to family events. Your uncles are shooting their shot at your girl. It It gets wicked. But you can't say that to a young man because he's going to want to have it himself before he can say, okay, I know I don't want that. So I love that point you just brought up, Rich. It took us 20 years of sharing an Audible account and looking for the answers and the cheat codes and these self-help books only to realize 20 years later, both of us damn near 40 and we came to the same conclusion. There is no cheat code. There is no cheat codes and we should create a platform letting young men know there's a lot of nuance to this shit let us help you get through it and I think that is a perfect closing to this episode a lot of these things that we're going to talk about on this platform they're not going to be as clear as a top 10 list to get guaranteed results whoever is selling you that is a fucking liar and they're a con man and they deserve for every account that they have to be taken down because you're misleading people it's the 8 minute abs of the self help community and I we think it's fucked up because we lived our lives we followed all these blueprints and we're at where we're at and I'm not saying we're not happy with where we're at but the one truth we know is there's a lot of gray area a lot of these subjects and we'd like to bring in more professionals that we know very successful people that can also help unpack these very case sensitive situations

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:22

yeah I love that we're gonna definitely have to bring more people up here and we might have to revisit every episode with like guests to give their perspective on this well

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:32

you know what I think an 18 year old version of justin would have seen this episode titled no plan b and i would have clicked on it thinking i was going to get like sex advice like what do i do what do i do if i accidentally got my side chick pregnant that's what i would think when i see no plan b

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:52

there you go that's the hook

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:56

you want to talk about no plan b stories boy does rich got some for you guys

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:01

yeah maybe on the next episode

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:03

failures podcast we're out of here rich do i know you got your closing spiel you want to give our

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:11

community yes man listen it's been a couple episodes we've been getting a lot of feedback please continue to give us feedback leave them in the comments rate the podcast on apple podcast we're on spotify or everywhere you get your podcast out of here peace