SPEAKER_02: 0:03

It's almost like a really weird positive lens to look at not growing up with a consistent father figure. Is that you learn to deal with life by playing the cards that are already put in front of you, and then you just move forward. Failures podcast. Learn from our failures and our mistakes so you don't have to. Today we are talking about father wounds, the void left behind when fathers are not around. Rich, every man I know is fighting one of two battles. Either you're becoming your father without realizing it, or you're just spending all your energy trying to prove you're not him. But honestly, bro, both are the same wound. Here's the thing that nobody tells you about the father wound. Kids like me and you who grew up without dads or dads that were not around at pivotal points in our lives, they grow up with an emotional absence, a void. They don't just get over it. They spend their late teen years, their 20s and their 30s either copying the same emotional shutdown or becoming people pleasers. We see a lot of people like that in our community. They overcompensate in either one of two directions. And the saddest part is that they grow up subconsciously knowing that something's missing. And it doesn't become clear until they get older. Rich, was there ever a time when you were younger and you realized that you did have a void when it came to this thing that we're seeing online called the father wound?

SPEAKER_00: 1:37

Man, the the father wound. I I got a big band-aid over that one. Yeah, bro. I remember being 14, 15 in high school, entering the dating scene, uh, going through puberty, and having all these questions about, you know, becoming a man and sensitive questions, right? One that you wouldn't feel comfortable asking your mom. And I remember just looking around me for that sort of male figure and not having it. And like it devastated me. I'm like, man, these are definitely moments where I wish I had a father to uh speak to, get advice from, um, and learn how to navigate uh puberty and you know ultimately be becoming uh a man. So very tough time for me growing up. That was like one of the first moments in my life where I felt I really uh had a void.

SPEAKER_02: 2:26

Rich, uh I I love that you explained that. You broke that down because the idea came from a few subjects that we wanted to touch on that we haven't, and we're about 15 episodes into the failures podcast catalog. Why the father one was so important to you?

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

Yeah, I I feel like most men have some sort of relationship with their fathers, whether that be good or negative or or critical about their fathers. A lot of times you you attribute your upbringing to either your mother, your father, or or both of your parents, and you sort of nitpick as to uh the things you liked about your upbringing, the things you didn't like. And I just remember having that father void being such a pivotal thing in my life where I'm like, man, there's more people like us without fathers or or absent fathers that than there are not. So I'm like, we definitely have to unpack and um you know just share some advice about how we were able to reframe our mentality to not feel that that victim mentality of like, man, I grew up without a father and and I've had this void my entire life.

SPEAKER_02: 3:33

I love that you brought that up. And, you know, for our consistent viewers, they know that we always take the approach of not claiming to be gurus or gods. We do touch on a lot of subjects, whether it be with women or finances or just growing up as a young man in 2025 and beyond, right? But I don't claim I'm an expert at anything, but I do find that you and I, Rich, bond over this thing. We have a different situation with both of our fathers. Your father was pretty much absent. I don't know when he was absent. I'd like you to get into that, but my father, a lot of people do know him where I'm from. He's a very notoriously well-known guy for a lot of the stuff he did in his personal life, how he made money. He was very active in the streets. He was, as us Puerto Ricans like to call a callejero, he was somebody that ran around a lot in order to make ends meet. And I find myself conflicted with this particular episode because a lot of the resources and the subjects we're pulling from are people that their fathers abandoned them at birth or they left them early, which is more of your situation. My situation is a little bit different because my father was around, but he was very much preoccupied by a lot of other things. And a lot of my push and pull that comes from this subject comes from that. So I almost feel like a fraud, you know, doubling down on the things that I want to hear from you first, because tell us a little bit about growing up without a father and when did it happen, and and how does this subject resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00: 5:08

Yeah, for sure. So my pop left our family when I was two years old. I think my mom was already pregnant with my brother. So he left super early on. I really didn't get to know him early on in life. He sort of popped in and out around like seven or eight years old, uh, popped in again around 12 or 13. And when I say pop out, I mean like, hey, let's go hang out for a day, right? And then just drop us back off. Um, but not any sort of real relationship. It wasn't until I got older that I realized, wow, like he has been, you know, missing for most of my life. And we've never had that connection or that relationship. And it wasn't around 17 or 18 when I thought to myself, I'm like, damn, like what did I do wrong? Like, why did he leave? Well, was it something we did? Like, were we not enough for him? Like, what is he running away from? Like, I always I wanted to have that relationship with my pops, but he just didn't seem interested. It would just wasn't something that felt like it didn't matter to him. Um, and I just always remember self-reflecting to myself, I'm like, damn, like why, like, is there something wrong with me? Like, did I do something wrong? Did me and my brother, you know, push him away? And that's a very real thing to feel, bro. I feel like most kids feel, most young men feel that they're the cause uh as to why their pops is not around. And that's sort of one of the first things you have to reframe. And we'll get into that uh in the latter half of this show.

SPEAKER_02: 6:40

This is good. And I I I'm glad you said that. I want our listeners to know that the first half of the episode we're gonna dedicate to unpacking what a lot of younger guys in our community are going through, even older guys, guys in their mid-20s, late 20s. Rich and I are dead center in the middle of this subject. So we want to speak on our own personal situations to give more context to this wound that is left behind by not having a father figure or having a father do other things other than raise you in a way that you've probably seen other people getting raised. So we will unpack that in the first half. But the second half, Rich and I are gonna get into I think the best case scenario for for you and me, Rich, which was how we approached this, I want to say flaw. It almost felt like it was a flaw growing up that we didn't have what other kids had, we didn't have what other young men had. And how we weaponized it. We turned that fuel into fire. And the language used in a lot of these research papers, which I went down a rabbit hole just to try to give myself like this self-therapy, they call it overcompensation. That's pretty much what it is. A lot of broken young men who either come from abusive fathers or fathers that weren't around or fathers that neglected them or young men that yearn for the validation of their father, what happens is they wind up overcompensating. And I want to get into the back half of the episode of how that overcompensation has, I think it's helped both of us. You're in your mid-30s, I'm in my late 30s. And I almost got to thank the way I was raised for being a big reason for how broken I am when it comes to conquering any problem that's in front of me because I refuse to feel that feeling that I felt when I was a kid and I was kind of abandoned. And that's part of the overconversation. And I want to get into how we could flip this negative narrative and turn it into a more positive narrative. Some of our greatest mentors and people that I admire come from the most fucked up backgrounds. And I think you can't have one without the other, as unfortunate as that sounds. So, just my calling to young men is that you're not doomed. This is not something that should cripple you. It actually should help you with what comes later in life, because life is not easy. And a lot of these situations, when you grow up fatherless or with this void of validation, it actually carries into adulthood. And if you're used to feeling lesser, then you learn how to get over it quicker.

SPEAKER_00: 9:15

Yeah, I agree. And I feel like that overcompensation is sort of the end result of growing up with an absent father. I think like the natural progression of how you unravel your emotions is that first it starts with anger. It's like, why is he not around? I want him around. Am I broken? Is there something wrong with me? You know, what do we do to push him away? So it's that anger of like the void, right? Then there's a moment of grief where you're just like you come to an acceptance of like, damn, this is just the way it is. I'll maybe I'll never know why he left and why he didn't choose to stick around, but I have to come to a place of grief, a place of acceptance in order for me to continue to move forward. And then I think phase three is exactly what you just said is just giving yourself that overcompensation of like, okay, I see how I was raised without a father. I'm gonna do exactly what he didn't do for me with my child. I'm going to educate myself on what it really is like to be a good father, right? I I'm sure you you've probably seen this clip from uh Fresh Prince of Balair where Will Smith is super happy that his pops comes back and he he's excited. And, you know, Uncle Phil tells him, like, hey man, just so you know, your dad has been in and out of your life, like, don't get so excited. He's making all these false promises. And then later on in the show, he buys him a gift and his pops is gonna bail on him again because he said he got a has another job or whatever. And you know, he deserted him once again after he was sort of an adult. And he told Uncle Phil, How come he don't want me, man? Like, what is it about me that is so wrong that he keeps running away from? So, yeah, man, it it's it's very deep.

SPEAKER_02: 11:03

Wait, stay stay right there, because I I feel like you cut this into three parts, which Rich, you know how much I respect you as a man, a business partner, a friend. But I said this on one of our episodes. One of my greatest fears is that I won't be a good father. And I know that's rooted in basically what we're gonna talk about in this episode. But you have a damn near a teenage son. So I want to talk about raising a son knowing that you felt what you felt on behalf of you and your brother when you were younger. Talk about that a little bit more because I feel like that's important. There's probably an overcompensation that even comes with raising your son and making sure you get it right because you don't have a proper blueprint. You never really were given one.

SPEAKER_00: 11:45

Yeah, for me, that's a different overcompensation. And um, if I'm being honest and transparent and vulnerable, there's a lot of guilt that I carry um when it comes to the relationship I have with my son. And the reason being is that uh my relationship with his mother never worked out since he was born. So he walked into a broken home to no fault of his own, right? So I have him on the weekends, I've had him on the weekends since he was, you know, three, four days old. We've been rocking every weekend, and you know, he's 13 now. But I feel guilt that I only have him two days, right? So I uh my time with him is limited. And I never wanted that for my child. I just always thought that I was gonna be with my children's mom. We're gonna live happily ever after, and I was just gonna be the best father I could be. And unfortunately, for my firstborn, it didn't work out that way. So I carry a lot of guilt that I am doing more things for him than my dad didn't do for me. However, I feel I come up short because it's not enough. I feel like I could have done more had me and his mom stayed together. But, you know, that's a story and uh episode for another day.

SPEAKER_02: 12:59

Yeah, no, I think it's all important because I was gonna mention this earlier in the episode, but I might as well mention it now. When you really think about the father wound and young men looking for a tribe or a village or some sort of guidance anywhere in the world, let alone the internet. What a time to be alive and to seek information that you didn't have in your own household. And typically we talk about finances, we talk about women, we talk about dating, we talk about self-esteem. All these subjects when I was doing my research for this episode, all kind of funnel back to the same body of water that is the father wound. A lot of young men seeking tribe and male role models so they can understand how to live, assuming they didn't get it at home. And that has created this whole subcategory on the internet, which you and I, Rich, and we're going back to phase one of our business plan, was we were able to identify man, it seems like a lot of young guys are looking for information on many subjects on being a man, anything that falls under that subject, but they seem to be getting it from a lot of one-dimensional uh characters online. And not that we have anything against those one-dimensional characters. I love all of those guys in the quote unquote male pocket of self-development because I think they're all contributing to the part that they know best. I can't shame Goggins for only being the horse with the blinders that wants to teach every man a fuck pain, you gotta push through it. There are negatives that come with that, but it is beneficial to have a guy like that in your phone that can speak to you when you're at the gym or you're feeling down on yourself. Then you got guys like Joe Rogan that are into more of a multifaceted, uh, otherworldly view of bro culture, which is like, man, get get into your body, get into fitness, get into mixed martial arts, get into comedy. And then you got guys that are on the far other end, like Andrew Tate, who are trying to help young guys understand, hey, you don't always gotta be the victim when it comes to being with women. You can work on yourself, you can be the man. He's teaching them this, like it's not the best advice, but it is giving them this like pride in being a guy that has his shit together and the world shouldn't take advantage of you. And whatever falls under the category of the world taking advantage of you, that guy is for men. So that's where this huge bubble of male influence came from. And anybody else in that subcategory came from young men looking for tribe, mentorship, guidance. And why is that, Rich? Because they didn't have it at home.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 15:55

And they didn't have it in their media community. And that's what Failures Podcast, we're just riding on the wave of whatever that conversation is about because we too vicariously seek that from one another. And we were able to put it on a podcast and on YouTube.

SPEAKER_00: 16:08

Yeah, and I think, you know, when you grow up in a broken home, naturally you're you're looking for different pieces of content to be that glue to stitch it back together. And I think the the most important thing that we want to let our audience members, listeners know is just like just because you grew up in that broken home doesn't mean that that has to be the way you are, right? Just because you potentially saw your dad beating on your mom, that doesn't by default make you a woman beater, right? You know what I'm saying? Like you could take all the negative things that you grew up with and the things that you saw and witnessed and experience, and you can flip that into just knowing what not to do and you know, just really shifting your brain into understanding that, man, I saw, I witnessed all these things growing up, and this is exactly what I don't want to be like. Because I feel like you have two choices when you grow up in a broken home. You can either emulate what you grew up seeing, or you could choose to do the opposite and do better than what you grew up seeing.

SPEAKER_02: 17:15

That's deep, man. I did have a feeling that we would rush as close to the brink of vulnerability and tears in any episode, it would be this episode. Because I, Rich, just like you, I feel very strongly about this episode because I'm conflicted in many ways about the hero that is my father, but also the human and flawed person that is my father, my biological father. And those who know me very well know that my stepfather came in at a pivotal time in my life. My mom remarried, and um, you know, he was a different kind of example for me, but almost a tale of two stories very similar to my father. And my mom has a crazy propensity to go and find these guys that are like I don't know, bro, you know, most of my family, like they're just characters, they carry and portray an image to the outside world, but in the private world, they are very flawed. And one thing that I can say from a more vulnerable place, Rich, is that not until my early 30s I didn't get good at understanding, man, every human being comes with their flaws. You know, like myself included, the the things that make me unique and make people love me are also the things that can ruin a lot of things for me, can sabotage a lot of good things I have going. That ego and pride that I have running through me that gets me job promotions and gets me notoriety in my field and um shit gets me attention with women is also the same thing that has been responsible for ruining a lot of the good things I have. So I say that before we get any further, just to kind of give forgiveness to any young man who is looking at this person that was supposed to be a male role model for them, or someone who left them, or someone they have a conflicted relationship with. The best thing that I was able to do in my whole life, which is a great lesson that I want to share, is I was able to let go of the coal that I was holding in my hand that was burning me. It was like this resentment and this anger that I had, but it wasn't affecting anybody else other than me. So what I did was I turned that coal into something that could dump into a fire and and let that let that fire light my like trail forward. And you know, it that might have been some of the best advice that I was able to give myself, and I want to share that with our community. And there's something that I wrote, Rich. I hope it's cool, but I did write this once upon a time, and I thought it'd be cool if I shared it on this platform because I I never thought to share it, but I did write it just as like something to give myself the freedom to not have to always think about this problem in my life or a problem that I created in my life.

SPEAKER_00: 20:04

Yeah, let's hear it, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 20:06

A man's mission is rarely just about what he's building, it's about what he's repairing. The absent father, the critical father, the abusive father, they all leave a void that becomes the engine, the engine of ambition. This is the engine of my ambition. So how dare I be upset at the man who gave me the fuel that lights my fire that has created all the success in my world? We tell ourselves we're chasing success, but often we're just chasing validation from a man who may never give it. The greatest achievers that I admire, Dame Dash, Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, they have a secret. They weren't just driven solely by their passion. It's a secret that I've always known. I never like sharing it with people because I too can see someone that is broken. And part of being broken comes from coming from a household that's broken. And I know that those guys I named, they're all driven by the need to prove that they were worth showing up for. And sometimes the man that you want to show up for you most doesn't show up. So you raise hell and you conquer so much land that you hope that at some point you can stand at the highest mountain and that man can see you. And until that man realizes this, and that man is you, you're building a momentum and you're chasing a ghost. You have to realize that chasing that ghost is not worth it. Just stop chasing the ghost and start doing it for yourself. Let it go and start moving forward. Because whatever blessings are forward are probably gonna come from the ghosts that haunt you from your past. Damn.

SPEAKER_00: 21:57

That's that's crazy perspective right there, bro. I I love it.

SPEAKER_02: 22:00

I wrote that during the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00: 22:02

I I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 22:03

You didn't know I was gonna do that to you.

SPEAKER_00: 22:04

You didn't know You almost left me speechless. Man, you you know what that reminded me of? Like, and I think you touched on it a bit. I think everyone always loves uh a sort of redemption story. And for a long time, bro, growing up, I really felt like my father was sort of gonna come to his senses. And he did resurface when I was like 18, 19, and I was going to college. And I was excited because I'm like, damn, because he specifically asked for me. Like he he was um, he was in town, he was at my aunt's house, and he called my mom and he said, Hey, I want to see uh Rich. Um, can you have him come over? And it was a couple blocks away. And and I was excited. I was like, man, I think this is a redemption story where my father's just gonna admit his faults and you know explain why he was absent uh for most of my life. You're holding that coal. I was holding that coal, yeah, and I was so ready to forgive him, bro. I was like, no, this is great. He'll be involved in in the second half of my life. This is gonna be wonderful, right? So I get to my aunt's house, and maybe five minutes into the conversation, he goes, Hey, uh, tell me the truth. How many girls are you sleeping with now? Oh, bro. And my heart just sunk to my stomach because I was like, damn, bro, not like how's college going? Um, how's your health? How's the family? How are you feeling? How's life been? Like, you're worried about my my body count, like, like how many girls I'm sleeping with? Like, in Spanish, it's called Sinbergüenza, bro. It's like he was always that guy. Like, I think that was his way of deflecting an uncomfortable conversation with humor and maybe a little bit of comedy on sin vergüenceria, but like it didn't land, bro. And that moment, I just remember registering it, like, damn, bro, this dude's never gonna change, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 23:59

I've never seen your father, Rich, and I'm curious because for those that know and are from the Northeast or Caribbean, typically Dominicans, not all of them, obviously. Latinos, we're all fucking, we come in all shades, but usually darker skinned. Uh, you don't look like the average Dominican. Did you come out looking like your mom or your dad? Because I feel like he was a pretty boy, and that's why he asked you that question. Because a lot of his identity probably comes from being like a fly guy.

SPEAKER_00: 24:23

Yes, bro. He gave me his email one time and it was like Jigolo Bigelow 69. I was like, nah. I wish I was lying.

SPEAKER_01: 24:35

If you want to email Richard's father, email him at my fucking gigolo the meal at hotmail.com.

SPEAKER_00: 24:42

Hotmail, yeah. He had the hotmail, bro. I wish I was joking, Jess. I wish I was joking, bro. Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 24:48

So he's a pretty, he's a pretty guy. He just had he did he have your features or you got your mom's features?

SPEAKER_00: 24:54

Yeah, yeah. I mean, a little bit of both, but yeah, just like young, handsome guy. He was in the military back in the Dominican Republic. So anybody in any sort of like law enforcement was uh really sought after back in the 70s and 80s. So he was a pretty boy, you know, and he um very, very much liked women. And and that that was what he was into, and that was what he felt was important to him, what made him a man. So I think he tried to connect with me on that level, and I think at 19 years old, he thought, like, oh, this is a conversation that I could have with my son. What he failed to realize is like, bro, we're not even there yet. Like, we don't have a relationship. How do you think I'm gonna feel comfortable talking to you about something that personal? Crazy. Nah, he's wild, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 25:36

Yeah, he's wild.

SPEAKER_00: 25:36

He's wild.

SPEAKER_02: 25:37

By the way, he's he's insanely immature. That's that's that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 25:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 25:42

Yeah, I want you to finish your point because I do want to get to the portion of like the community and what they had to say, and I want to give these guys some advice.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

Yeah, no, I I was just gonna end it with that was the last time I ever spoke to my father. And I'm 37 years old. Wow. Wait, wait, how many years has it been? Uh 17, 18. Yeah, at least. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:02

By the way, we're not gonna get into actionable advice on this episode, even though we typically try to do that on every episode to give our community something tangible to walk away with that they could start practicing today. But I think, Rich, we could just speak on our personal situations. Uh, we should speak on what the community had to say. And I do want to get into some actual research from a few research papers from credible sources that I was able to pull on what is the most typical things that come out of young men that go through these situations. And we can kind of speak to some solutions there. But the one thing you made me think of was the hot coal. We keep using this phrase, right? What was it about that last conversation that allowed you to, I don't know, are you forgiving him when you when you release the coal or are you forgiving yourself? Unpack that a little bit and I guess contextualize it in a way for like a younger guy that's listening that may still carry that resentment and hope that their father could see them and and approve of them or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:58

Yeah, that that's a great question. And I I think for a long time I felt like, you know, exactly what you said earlier, where I felt like I wanted that validation. I seek that acceptance from him and and that like, hey, do you care right from him? And it wasn't until that conversation with him when I was 19 years old that I realized, well, wait a minute, this this man is never gonna change. Like he is who he is. Like he's crazy. If we're gonna give him kudos about anything, is that man, this man is consistently him, you know what I mean? Like just consistently won't wait. So that was such a pivotal moment where it made me realize, like, bro, he's not gonna change. The one that needs to change is me. I need to reframe the way I view this relationship, the way I view this man. And ultimately, yes, I did come to a place of acceptance and forgiveness because the way I framed it in my head, bro, is like I'm I almost thought of it as like a mental illness. You know, he he was he was immature, he wasn't ready to be a father, he doesn't know the personality and characteristics and tenacity that it takes to be a father. Just because you like put your seed in a woman and that woman births a child doesn't make you a father. You have to know how to be a father, be present, contribute in that child's life. There was a lot of things that he was missing. And for me to try to hope that he would eventually get there was like false hope. I had to reframe how I viewed him as a person and how I healed that wound that was, you know, that father wound.

SPEAKER_02: 28:33

That summary is great, Rich. And I relate to that one a lot because even though my father was very much around when I was pre-14, at 14 him and my mom broke up. That's one thing that I learned in my 30s, and definitely during the pandemic, that was huge for me. Because I had enough time to think about it, and I had enough time as an adult to hang out with my father as an adult. And I started seeing a lot of this uh arrested development is probably the best way that I could put it. Unfortunate for him, but but fortunate for me, the way this evolution shit works is like the picture of the ape that is in its most primitive form, and it eventually evolves into a man. Uh someone standing upright, shoulders back, walking on two feet. And I think that's just a natural progression for families that come from lower income areas or families that come from immigrant families or families that were honestly fucked up by drugs or anything that that stumped the evolution and the growth of our last name. And anybody watching this, your last name. And I part of the letting go of the coal that was burning my hand, which was the validation I wanted for my father, was realizing man, I should only judge him based on the resources, information, and education that he had. Growing up in New York, in New Jersey, in the 70s, when he didn't have all the information I had. And I might be able to argue that he put me in a position to be the man I am today, but he wasn't around to teach me what I was able to learn. And maybe that's me coping with my situation, but it helped me look at him in a different light and almost see him as a young man and less as my father. I almost saw him like the way my grandmother would see him versus the way I saw him as a dad. And even to this day, it helps me understand the relationship that I have with my father. Because it's like certain subjects he's gonna thrive in and he's gonna lead me as a parent would. And then certain subjects, it's fucked up to say, but it's part of maturing. You develop an education beyond the guy who gave birth to you. So you're just like, oh, you don't even understand what I'm talking about, and that's okay. And I think that courtesy is part of how I've gotten to develop a better relationship with my idea of my father. Because sorry to be long-winded, Rich, but to me, the goal isn't to hate your father, it's to become the man he never taught you to be. So I just decided I need to stop wasting valuable energy fighting old demons, and I just started building from a clean page, you know, like a dry erase board. I just erased everything and I'm creating a new legacy, something that I'm proud of. And, you know, what's the alternative? I gotta live in my past and then potentially pass those wounds forward to my children, to my future son. I can't imagine that. So the best thing for me to do was just give it a clean slate and start fresh. And for those that don't know, that's why I love the name Justin Duran Duran, because I'm I'm two times my last name because I believe that I can do two times more for my family and my last name than anyone who came before me was able to do. And you know, that's a product of my situation, the the fortunate situation I was put in.

SPEAKER_00: 32:04

That's amazing, bro. And I I feel like you only have that perspective when you're in your 30s and you're a little bit older and you're paying bills and you're paying rent, and you're like, damn, this adulting thing is not that easy. And you kind of like true, bro, look at your parents and you're like, damn, how did they have it? I did that with my mom, where I kind of like was very critical about my upbringing. And then it wasn't until I hit my 30s that I was like, damn, but hold on. This woman raised three boys by herself. Yeah, this woman had me at 16 years old by herself. Like, and then I was like, then I grew an appreciation for like, damn, like we we really got it out of the mud. But yeah, I think that's a perspective that you only have once you get older. And there's something that you told me a while back. I don't know if you remember this story, but you said to me one time, like, man, it's crazy how when you look back at your parents and they're no longer that superhero that you once saw them as, you sort of like lose not respect for them, but the magic that made your pops your hero and your mentor. You have to look at them in a different light. Cause now you're a man yourself, and you're like, nah, bro, you you you could have done more, you could have done better, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 33:19

Like, so I have uh and I remember exactly when I told you that it was during the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00: 33:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 33:25

Quick story. Uh, we will get back to the lessons. Lesson number one was to let go of the coal. In order to move forward, you have to forgive yourself and you have to forgive your father. I think that's number one. Because holding the coal is only gonna burn you. He obviously chose to take whatever actions he took that led you to the head space that you're in. And you can't put your feelings into your father's brain and assume that he's automatically gonna know what you're thinking. So part of letting go of the coal is that it doesn't burn anybody else, it just burns you the longer you hold on to it. So whether it's vengeance, spite, approval, just drop it. Start from a clean slate. That's definitely lesson number one. And we'll get into lesson number two in a little bit because I have some ideas on how we can help these guys. But before we get into that, I do want to share a quick story. I give the fast version because this story is actually fucking hilarious. So during the pandemic, I was uh working at the record label that I was at before where I'm at now, and uh I was probably working with one of the biggest artists in the world, period. There's no other way I could put it. And this artist was probably on my bucket list for the whole time I was at this label. And again, those that are listening, I don't enjoy mentioning my artists because I don't think it's fair to them. But if you know who I am, you'll put the pieces together. I finally got the project, Rich. During the pandemic, they did some reshuffling in the company I was in. It was the crown jewel of the label that I was at. And I have done enough good work until that moment that they were like, you know what, Justin, you deserve an opportunity to work the biggest project in the building. And if you know me, you know I'm a sicko. Like, this is I have this shit written down in notebooks, I have this in my journal. Like, this is some life goal shit. And I remember taking my second meeting with the entire management team for this artist and the whole global staff of the company that I was at and the domestic staff of the label that I work for. So that's three entities of 20 plus people on one Zoom call. And if you remember during the pandemic, everything was on Zoom. So we're talking about over at least 100 people on one call. And I'm the project manager, I oversee the marketing strategy. So I had to sit with management prior to the call and then present the strategy to a global staff. I'm talking about people on the chat were translating what I was saying in other languages just so other countries could understand the like the strategy. This is how like major this was. Anyway, long story short, my father at the same time was trying to figure out his unemployment and how to live at home during the pandemic because he wasn't used to it. So he was coming to me for a lot of like unemployment processing information online because you couldn't go to the physical location. So I was helping, I got him Wi-Fi, I bought him a laptop, I was helping him get his login. But if you again, if you know my biological father, he's a fucking demon. Like when he gets upset, it's very intense. And immediately, if you don't solve it, you're the worst person in the world. So this is happening while I'm managing the biggest project of my life. So it's 11 a.m. East Coast time. I'm back in Jersey. I'm living in a condo in Edgewater. And uh, bro, I'm feeling myself. I'm so happy, I'm prepared. I get on the Zoom, I open up the call, nice little joke, start putting my little agenda together. And at this time, my iMessage on my laptop was connected to my phone. So this man was FaceTime audioing like every five minutes while I'm on the call. So if you know how Zoom works, if the FaceTime audio comes in, it cuts off your camera. So imagine the knot that is in my stomach, because I'm like hosting the biggest call of my life with over a hundred people on it, and my father's FaceTiming me over and over and over, and I'm and I'm hitting reject. But at some point I'm starting to get worried. I'm like, maybe hopefully he's good.

SPEAKER_00: 37:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 37:25

So I text him, Pop, you good? He's text me, pick up the fucking phone. Like, okay, he's obviously okay. So I get back on the call, and one of the biggest artist managers in the world is like, hey, is everything okay? You keep cutting out of the call. And at this point, I'm so worried that I'm like, guys, I'm sorry, but my father is FaceTiming me over and over. And I don't know if he's good because it's during the pandemic, and COVID was still a big issue. So the manager and the artists were on the call were very generous. They were like, no, no, take care of that. Like everybody was very sensitive of the climate. Rich, I swear to you, I get to the other line, I pick up the FaceTime audio. The first thing this dude says is, yo, who the fuck you think you are? The president? Why are you so hard to get in contact with? My response. Pop, I'm working. I told you from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m., I'm working. He's like, How are you working? If you're at home, I'm like, that's neither here nor there. What do you need? He's like, yo, I can't find my Netflix password that you made for me. Can you send it to me? Oh man. So, mind you, that happens. I get back on the call. I actually share the joke with the management team and the whole staff. Bro, they were crying of laughter. They obviously related. I end that call. I'm fucking hot. I'm tight. I vented in my brother, vented to my mom. I realized at some point, like, yo, I probably should talk to somebody about this. The label that I was working for had uh these packages, like five free therapy sessions during the pandemic for people that were going through a lot. So I was like, fuck it, why not? I've never done therapy in my life. And this is gonna get into actionable advice. I start doing therapy over Zoom to like talk about anything. So the first thing we talk about is my father. We get into it. Rich, I did not realize how much I had on my chest about this father wound. And my therapist immediately got to it. She started unpacking it, chipping away at it. So it was actually really helpful by I would say by session number three. So she's like, Why are you so angry about the password thing? And I'm venting, venting, venting. And she goes, Did it ever occur to you, Justin, that your father is as normal as any person in the world, and you put him on a pedestal? Because at some point in your childhood development, every young boy holds their father to this status and this hero idea in their mind that they don't even deserve. Damn. Fuck me up.

SPEAKER_00: 40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:13

So I go, I never thought of that. She goes, he's as fallible as any human being on the planet, Justin. And if you tell me about how he was raised and how he dropped out of school in the eighth grade to run around in the streets and make money for your family, chances are something like a login for unemployment or a login for Netflix is very intimidating to him because he's only used to handling things through aggressive confrontation and physicality. And he's intimidated. He himself is a young boy that's crying for help because he doesn't know how to manage his own anger. So, Justin, what you and your brother have is an issue. And that issue is called false idols. When you put your idols on pedestals, you're guaranteed for disappointment because they are as fallible as anybody else. That goes for your mom, your dad, even your heroes online, even the people that you look up to on the internet, all these gurus you look up to, everybody's fallible. So you put yourself in a fucked up spot when you put false idols on a pedestal because they're only going to fall from grace because they're human. And that, my friends, is lesson number two. The false idol syndrome we get from being young people that idolize people we literally look up to. So you have to take your mother and your father off a pedestal because they don't deserve to be on a pedestal. They're normal people just like me and you.

SPEAKER_00: 41:39

Damn, bro. That that's an incredible story.

SPEAKER_02: 41:42

Do you feel you suffer from that? Like there's this idea that you had of your dad that was disappointed when you finally learned who he was?

SPEAKER_00: 41:50

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'll share something even a little bit more recent that still affected me because I think, you know, like I said earlier in the show in the beginning, it's like this is it, this father wound is a band-aid that you a big fucking band-aid that you put over that wound, right? And you you, you know, you you go through, like I said, you go through the three phases, you go through anger, grief, and then acceptance, and then ultimately you reshape your mind to view this relationship in a different way that either doesn't affect you as much or it's pretty pretty buried underneath the layers of who you are. But I remember not too long ago, bro, five years ago, I was 32 years old. I had closed on my house, right? I was 32, I closed on my house, and I'm driving by myself. I just went to Home Depot to pick up some like supplies to just paint, and I was so excited to do all this home improvement stuff in my new home. And I remember thinking to myself, damn, if my father only saw like what I've just accomplished, would he be proud? I asked myself that question. Bro, I fucking cried from Home Depot all the way to my crib, bro. That's deep, bro. Like tears, uncontrollable tears. And then, you know, I picked myself up, gathered myself, put myself back together. But prior to that moment, I thought, like, nah, bro, my pops have hasn't been around. I haven't spoken to him in over 15 years. You know, he's living his life, I'm living my life, bro. I'm good. Like, I don't need my pops. I figured out how to be a man on my own. So I thought I was straight. And then I had this one moment where like I just wanted a male father figure to be like, yo, I see you. I'm proud of you. And I didn't have that. And I was like, damn, that shit crushed me. So, man, this might be something where you just live your entire life with this wound. You know what I mean? It might never be, you know, you might have stitched it up, and but a little moment, a little reflection could rip that bitch back up. You know what I'm saying? And and and it still hurts. So I say that to say it's important to navigate these emotions when you think about this wound. Because it's it's inevitably going to reappear, right? It's gonna come up, you're gonna feel that void consistently. And you just have to remind yourself, like, man, that's a chapter in my life where I might have never figured out exactly what it was supposed to be, as far as like the relationship I was supposed to have with them. But we're good, we're moving forward, we're progressing. And um, yeah, I just wanted to share that story because I'm like, No, no, Rich, I'm letting you speak because that shit is deep, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 44:42

Yeah, that's deep. You kind of went through it. I mean, again, for those that don't don't know Rich and I have been friends forever. As you can tell by episode, whatever we're on, we're we're 10 plus in, Justin, way more colorful, fucking loud, could be obnoxious to those who may or may not enjoy my energy. Rich, a little bit more stoic, a little bit more straight faced. But when Rich opens up about something, it's usually quick in and out, but there's a lot to be said and unpacked. And I don't want to brush past that moment. That made me emotional thinking about that accomplishment in your life. And isn't that insane how instinctually you're just looking for? You said the story about your daughter that she looks back when she walks to see if she's doing it right. We are genetically wired to look for that validation from our creators, the people who put us on the planet. But something about closing a home, why do you think your father came to mind immediately?

SPEAKER_00: 45:35

Because, you know, to me, it was a big life moment, right? It's one of those things where, like, when you first become a father, when you first buy your first home, when you land that that big job opportunity, like my mom was always there for all those moments. But it was something about like purchasing a home that I was like, yeah, I'm a man now. And then I wanted to turn and look over my pops to be like, yo, am I doing it? Like, am I the guy? Like, am I doing am I doing the right things? Did I make you proud?

SPEAKER_02: 46:05

Did I make you proud?

SPEAKER_00: 46:07

Did I make you proud? That's that's all I wanted. And I didn't have it in that moment. And you know, it made me emotional and um and I had to regroup. But I I I share that because, like, bro, honestly, I can't give you actionable advice. These are the top five things you need to do to change your perspective. It's like I can only give you my story in the hopes that you know you can extract some experience out of uh out of my story and and and in hopes that you know if you could relate, you kind of know how to how to mend and how to navigate these different emotions that are naturally going to come in and out of your life.

SPEAKER_02: 46:46

Rich, there's something that I was able to pull from the research that I did. And this one you can definitely confirm with any LLM, but I wanted to share this with you because I believe this will lead us into some more lessons and potential advice for our community because I feel like this hits right on the head of who we're talking to in this episode, ourselves included. So, what I was able to find is research shows that father absence correlates with identity struggles. So boys grow up without a reliable blueprint for manhood. What happens and what the research shows is over 40 years of data, the gap often reappears later as anger, social isolation, overcompensation, perfectionism, people pleasing, and emotional numbness. And the three categories it affects the most is work stress, romantic stress, and family, the ones that are around for you. Of all that that I said, which stood out the most to you? Because this feels right. This feels like the dirty little secret about growing up with the father wound is how it affects young men in their late teens and their early 20s, and obviously for the rest of their lives that they don't address it.

SPEAKER_00: 48:14

Yeah, if I could pick just one of those, I would say anger number one. I was an angry young man for a very, very long time. And I always blamed it on my upbringing, on my father, on my absent father, on my circumstances. And it took a very long time for me to reframe that anger and turn it into a little bit more uh positive, actionable momentum. But I feel like that anger, bro, if if if you're someone out there who's holding on to the anger of an absent father, that can only lead you to a road of negativity and unwanted obstructions and obstacles. I oftentimes think of someone who's like incarcerated, like a young man who's incarcerated. Like, bro, I'm positive if you do, if you do a poll of uh a hundred men who are incarcerated, ask them how many had their pops in their life. It's gonna be a fraction, right? That's how important a father figure is to a young man, right? It's it's it's your mentor, it's your your guidance into this harsh, difficult world. And, you know, even my own son sometimes asks me, like, damn, dad, like why are you so hard on me? Like, I feel like you're sometimes he says that I ride him a lot. And I'm like, I promise you, son, the world is a lot harsher than what you think I'm being to you right now. Anger.

SPEAKER_02: 49:37

Anger. Huge. You know, you've mentioned that a few times on this show that you were an angry young man. Do you remember like like certain, now that you can look back, do you remember certain incidents or moments where you were in full rage mode and you can identify and say, nah, that was correlated to the anger I had for my father?

SPEAKER_00: 49:56

Yeah, bro, even seeing my mom like dating men, right? Like, I I would always be like, nah, that's not my father. Like, whoever you bring to this house that isn't my pops is not my father. So I don't want to see them, I don't want to meet them. Like, it was just that that anger in me that that I carried for a really long time.

SPEAKER_02: 50:14

What would be your advice to a maybe like a teenage man right now that I like the prison stat and I I do believe that's true. What is your advice to someone to not allow that anger to drive them?

SPEAKER_00: 50:27

Bro, for forgiveness, acceptance, and and you you constantly say this on a couple different episodes. It's just the victim mentality, bro. Like you have to reframe your mind to not view yourself as a victim. If your pops is not around, if he made the choice to leave, that does not make you a victim. Reframe your mind and your perspective to be like, all right, I'm going to be different. I'm going to be a different man. I'm going to be a different father. I'm going to be a different tribe member to my family, opposite of what my father was to me.

SPEAKER_02: 51:06

That's really good. You know, the reframe your victim mentality is important. And I feel like it that comes up in a lot of episodes. And I can truly be like Uncle Justin, annoyed by young people, young men. And I always say, bro, you're not a fucking victim. Stop. I actually do find in a lot of these more serious subjects that we talk about that people are actual victims. And this is one of them. But what you're saying is reframe your victim mentality. It doesn't mean that you're not a victim. It means that there's nothing positive to be gained by playing that role your whole life because nothing good will come from it. Even though it's true, it's true to play the victim, but to be the victim is different.

SPEAKER_00: 51:50

Yeah. Think about how much control you're giving your absent father from carrying that anger throughout your life. Like that dude is not losing sleep, right? He's out doing whatever he's doing. He's obviously not present in your life, but you're the one carrying the burden of anger towards someone that's not reciprocating any energy towards you. Yeah. It's a waste of time, it's a waste of energy. And, you know, I'm almost hesitant to say don't be angry. I feel like you have to be angry. You have to accept that anger. Well, could you have told yourself that when you were that age? Don't be angry. Well, that's why I'm I'm reframing it. Start with anger, right? Because your situation is obviously not a desired situation, and you had no control over that. So it's okay to be angry. But find little ways to start to forgive and accept your situation and understand that you're not the victim and you're going to do better. You're going to be a better man. You're going to be a better father. So yeah, being angry is not bad to begin with, but staying angry for your entire life that your pops wasn't around, that to me is dangerous.

SPEAKER_02: 53:10

Rich, I have a uh tweet that I wanted to run by you. I want to know your reaction to it because I think it's right in line with what we're talking about here. When someone shows you what not to do or who not to be, pay close attention. There's a pain-free lesson to be learned. That one right there resonates with me because I think that of a lot of my upbringing, a lot of my upbringing was very dark and violent. When I close my eyes, I can see some crazy shit about how I grew up. And a reframe that is in line with what you just said and something I live by is that quote right there. When someone shows you what not to do, pay close attention because there's a pain-free lesson to be learned. Meaning the world around you and the people around you could not be living ideally or could be living fucked up. But if you pay close attention, you don't have to replicate what it is that they're doing. You can actually do the opposite and learn from it. That's what failures is all about. But I feel like that's really important in this situation because you know that pain. And you would never let your son go through that because you've used that pain as a way to reverse it and allow yourself to be a better man, be a better father.

SPEAKER_00: 54:22

Yeah. And listen, bro, I forgive my father. Had I not gone through this experience, I wouldn't be the person that I am today with these scars and these wounds and these, like, okay, here's how I can tweak things with raising my own son. Maybe had he been around a little bit more, I would have picked up different traits that I would have instilled in my son that I wouldn't have wanted to. So, man, I I really don't see myself as the victim. I think it's an unfortunate situation that my dad chose not to be a part of my life. I'm doing very well for myself, but I forgive him. You know, for whatever he went through, the reasons he left, the reasons he choose to live his life a certain way, I forgive him. But I don't forget, right? I don't forget that you were absent. But I do respect my experience and how it's shaped me.

SPEAKER_02: 55:18

I want to recap on the lessons because I've been writing them down, but the conversation's been so naturally flowing, I don't want to interrupt. But yeah, a few lessons for the father womb was lesson number one, let go of the coal, forgive him and start fresh. Lesson number two, beware of false idols. Lesson number three, the wound will never fully heal. And that's okay. Move on. Lesson number four, don't let anger drive you. You have to reframe your victim mentality. Rule number five, Rich, what you just touched on, is forgive but don't forget. Don't ignore the free lesson that life is giving you. We'll call it the reverse lesson. Don't repeat the problem or the pain that you went through, and don't put that on your children or people in your life. And that's the next portion of the conversation I want to get to, Rich, because I'm seeing it in the research, and I know how it's affected my dating life and the lack of trust I have towards women and my overcompensation and my I do have an anger and aggression towards everyone, honestly. And it doesn't help that I'm five foot seven, I got a broken family, my father was in and out. That I'm a fucking cocktail to be like a professional boxer or or like someone that conquers unknown lands. Most of the people I idolize are people that overcompensate. So talk a little bit about how the the father wound affects raising your son, but also relationships and and like how you've been able to like correct that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 56:55

Yeah, I mean, it it certainly has hardened me, maybe a little bit too much.

SPEAKER_02: 57:00

I think is this a complaint you get a lot from your girl? Yeah, me too, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:06

Yeah, like this is what has naturally made me stoic, bro, because I made a promise to myself a long time ago that I would not let my father or my circumstances affect me or break me to the point where I feel like I can't move forward. And that's why I do carry myself with this stoic demeanor because I feel like I have to accept the fact that there might be more bumps and bruises, and I'm going to receive more scars in life, right? So if if there's listen, if there's anyone that can get beat down a little bit more, it'll be me.

SPEAKER_02: 57:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:39

And and that's the benefit of like having that father womb, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 57:43

There is a phrase, it's uh the bigger the dragon, the better the story. And I changed that phrase a little bit because my childhood was a little darker than a dragon. So the quote that I live by, and it's literally what you just said, is the scarier the demon, the bigger the doubt monster, the better the hero story. And I believe that that's why you and I feel so confident about putting this platform together. Is because I believe that even in our mid-30s and late 30s, we believe that from this point forward, if we continue to do what we've already done to get here, we can help other young men conquer that dragon, that demon, that doubt monster. So it's almost like a w really weird positive lens to look at not growing up with a consistent father figure. Is that you learn to deal with life by playing the cards that are already put in front of you, and then you just move forward. And I agree with you. I think a lot of my relationships have suffered because of that, but I am the man today because I've been constantly done the work to understand why I am the way I am and try to improve as I move forward. I do apologize to every woman that suffered the wrath of me being a broken person, a broken man, but I'd like to believe at 39 I'm getting it right. And this relationship will reap all the rewards of all the work that I've done on myself. And that comes with forgiving my father for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 59:19

Yeah. And this is the byproduct of all those tweaks, right? Therapy, uh, mending relationships, forgiveness that you've made throughout the years to get to this point where you can self-reflect and be like, I'm not even mad at my dad. Like, had I not gone through those experiences, I it wouldn't have shaped the man that I am today.

SPEAKER_02: 59:42

Rich, there was a category that I don't think you and I fall into, but we have to discuss it is um people pleasing. This is one of the bigger categories that a lot of people in our community touched on. The lack of a father figure turned them into. For the lack of a better word, almost like a mama's boy, someone that lives to keep their mother happy so they don't repeat the same problems that their father created in their lives. And part of being the mama's boy comes with this people-pleasing energy that comes to woman pleasing, and you want to do everything for a woman. How do we feel about that as it relates to the father wound? Because that's a big one.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:22

I think that's probably a self-identity issue where you feel abandoned by your father. So you naturally look to your only parent that's left, which is your mom, and you're like, damn, I don't want to be abandoned by this person too. Let me overcompensate my relationship with my mother to make sure I don't lose her as well. And that's a very that's also a very dangerous path to go down. And because then, like you said, you become a people pleaser, you're overcompensating, you become a mama's boy. And I think that trickles into your uh adulthood, and women pick up on that very easily too.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:58

You know, there was an episode we did, it was probably two episodes ago. The the Russian guy who his father passed away early, and he wound up basically being some sort of pseudo-father in his mother's life and helped raise his brothers and sisters and took care of his mother. But I think that's the perfect example of what this people-pleaser mama's boy thing that comes from your father not being around. And you know, it's tough to kick a guy that's in this situation while he's down, but what I can say without being negative or being too fucked up, which this is not the episode for, but click around, we got some more motivational advice for you that is not so you know heartfelt. I don't think it benefits anybody that you're a people pleaser and you're someone that's constantly living to keep all the women happy because your dad wasn't around. It doesn't benefit anyone. It does benefit you to have a healthy balance between what a positive male role model should be and someone that can allow someone else to do what they need to do in order to find their peace. But overcompensating and trying to be everybody's hero is not going to fix the situation. And it's definitely not going to help you in the long run. So that's advice I would give to somebody that is under that category of a people pleaser or a mama's boy that is trying to overcompensate for their father not being around.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:21

Yeah, I I love that. And yeah, I think that'll be a good way to close. I think we've sort of touched on the the three different lenses that you could view the the father womb, right? The first one is um your father being present, but uh a little absent in some of the the ways you would want him to be present. My experience, which was just completely absent father um feeling abandonment. And three would be, you know, like you said, the mama's boy, the the guy who feels like he needs to overcompensate because his father's not around and maybe his mom feels lonely and he feels like he needs to fill that void of that male father figure in the home. But naturally you turn into a mama's boy, right? And yeah, that that's also not not a good way to carry out your life.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:13

Before we go, I do want to touch on the mama boy thing a little bit more because what I was seeing was people trying to help out these young guys online, and I found a little trapdoor that seems to be profiting other people that is exploiting a lot of these guys that are in this situation. And I just want to call it out. There are two categories online that seem to be exploiting young men who have the father wound and are looking for male guidance, male mentorship. One of them is guys that have platforms like we're creating, and they're selling these hocus pocus bullshit prescriptions to immediately cure their lives overnight. And I want to call that out because this is fucked up. This is like selling a pill to somebody that is physically handicapped and they can't do anything about not being able to move a body part and exploiting the need that the necessities' lives that a lot of these young guys live. And I want to be clear with our community don't fall for it. The work has to be done. And we kind of listed out everything that we thought was actionable without a barcode for you to buy into. So, Rich, I just curious to know what you think about that because that is I I find that'd be kind of fucked up. That that's what's happening a lot of these communities that I've been diving into.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:33

Yeah, not so much even online, but they think about in the hood, bro, in different communities. Like, what is the prime target of a gang is to find that young man who doesn't have a man Military police, yeah. Angry young men that are willing to, yeah. Yeah, bro. They recruit, they find these young guys with no father, recruit them, exploit them, exploit their vulnerability of feeling empty and be like, yo, I'll be a role model, I'll be your mentor, I'll be your rock, I'll give you guidance, I'll protect you. And most of these guys just they're like, damn, I need that, I want that, I seek that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:16

And what do you think they really want? What do you think they really want? And what's your advice to somebody about to pay$750,$1,000 for the ultimate alpha male roadmap to being the ultimate alpha wolf man of all time?

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:30

I think they just don't want to feel a void. They're buying into masking a void, whether that be joining a gang or buying a course or going to an event or whatever the case may be. And you know, it like you said, it's predatory at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:47

I feel like the solution is somewhere between, depending on your age and your situation, because I do understand there's pain there. There's a lot of pain in this specific category. But I find the solution to be somewhere between joining a sports team if you're in high school or middle school. There's a lot of positives that come from that, especially if you're a young guy, because one, you get to let off a lot of that aggression, playing football, soccer, uh, wrestling, whatever the case may be, boxing. And two, there is something that comes with the community that is built around other young men. And you'll find pecking order when you're playing a sport. You'll always be building community with a dude that's a senior when you're a sophomore, and he's the alpha of the group, and he's the guy that's gonna go to college four-year ride. And I think this natural, I don't want to say he's not gonna fill the void for a father in your life, but coaches, male mentors, and young men that are a little older than you, they kind of show you how to conduct yourself in a way that makes you feel like you're a part of something. And you're not just sitting at home under the arm of your mother online all day, searching through forum boards, looking to fill that void. So to your point, Rich, sometimes that void could get filled by joining a community and specifically a community that has like a common goal, which sports seems to be a quick shortcut to that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:13

Yeah, there's mentors out there for everyone, man. And certainly sports is is one. It could be a teacher. I know for us growing up, true, it was like true video and and edit editing classes. Shout out to Mr.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:28

Polynese. Yeah, Mr. P. You know what? That's a great point. I think I underestimated that one. My teachers in high school that were willing to deal with my terrible self, they did serve as father figures for me at a time where I really needed it. So yeah, you you know, you have to look for real life mentors that are not gonna charge you for their time and energy. That shit is crazy. And the last one I want to touch on, Rich. I know, I know we got to go, but what is your take on therapy? Because I have a very strong opinion on therapy.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:56

I went to therapy and I think um it did help. I feel like now that I'm a little bit older, almost a couple years away from my 40s, I feel like um I'm conflicted. I feel like I understand the world a lot better. I understand human psychology a lot better. And I have some resistance as to getting advice from someone who's probably just as flawed as me, if not even worse.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:24

Fuck getting advice. You're paying to get advice. I mean, for what it's worth, we're kind of doing a version of therapy here. No pain. Yeah. But yeah, uh continue that train of thought because I agree with you on that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:36

No, yeah, I'll I'll put a bow on it. It's just, I'm like, man, this person is probably just as flawed as me, if not even more. Like, sure, they might have different psychological terms from a textbook to label a particular situation or that I'm going through or an emotion that I'm feeling, but that doesn't qualify them to help me fix my current circumstance. So I think for me, bro, it's been people like you, my brother, people that I know love me and care about me that have helped me frame or or overcome different obstacles.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:12

I'll put I'll put a finer point on that because I think you summarized it well. Either any medical institution, now I'm not shitting on therapy because I did it with the free five that I had at the company I was working for. But what I realized by the fifth session is that I could see myself entering this revolving door and coming out of the same place I went in through for the next 50 weeks at a premium rate. And there is something about the cathartic relief that you feel from talking about something. Like I'm sure Rich is gonna feel better about his situation and I will after this episode because we got to speak on it. But when someone's charging you to speak, they're basically selling you a placebo for you to just dump all these problems on them. And sure, they're gonna label the problems for you because that's what they went to school for, because they understand how to bucket these issues. Like, for example, the story I said about my father being upset with him because he didn't know how to use the internet, and she hit me with the false idols, and it was a moment of clarity that I had that was worth every dollar that I spent on that therapy session. But after a while, what good is knowing what a false idol is if you can't take action on it to solve the problem? So I would say, even with the scammers that are selling shit online that are uh are trying to solve your problems in a 30-day payment plan or a therapist, not that I'm anti-therapy, I would say this understand the difference between a temporary solution and medication versus a permanent solution and not needing any more medication. Beware of the person that's selling you the former and not the latter. Because how could their business keep going on if they give you a permanent solution? That means you will never have to come back to them again.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:09

Yeah, you don't notice how every uh session ends with a cliffhanger. It's like, stay tuned. Let's talk about it uh next week.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:18

That's a great point. I didn't even think of that. She would always be like, hey, we'll get back to that in the next session.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:23

Yeah. Why do you say that, Rich? Bro, that's the hook. That's the hook to keep you coming back. It's like, damn, there's more to unpack. I guess I'll have to wait for next week to continue unpacking.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:33

So I'll say this about therapy before we go. Give yourself an X amount of weeks to get the thoughts out of your mind, journal, do the work, but nothing's gonna happen by just speaking on the issue that you feel like you have. If you have this father void, this father wound, talking about it is not the only way to get through it. You have to take action, like many things that we talk about. And anybody that's selling you a temporary solution, be eerie of them because part of their job is to keep selling you the temporary solution. Look for places that have permanent solutions. And I'm willing to bet nine times out of 10 that permanent solution is going to come from you. So I'll leave it at that, Rich. This was a heavy episode. Anyone in our community that is really going through this, like I said earlier, Rich and I are the perfect audience because we are 37 and 39 years old. We are still going through this and we're still dealing with a lot of this unpacking. And we'd love to extend the conversation beyond just the episode. Consider this the front door to the conversation. And if you want to reach us, Rich, I know there's a lot of places they can reach us if they want to keep this conversation going.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:42

Yeah, bro, we're pushing all of our efforts on YouTube. So these clips will be out on YouTube shortly. Please comment on this video. Our YouTube is at failuresmedia. And we're also streaming on Apple and Spotify so you can listen to the full form audio version of this podcast. Man, just this was a heavy one, but I mean, I'm excited for when this comes out. Crazy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:05

Failures podcast. Learn from our mistakes so you don't have to. Shout out to all the fathers out there that weren't around.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:13

Peace.