SPEAKER_01: 0:02

It's just knowing that my little dollar bills are going out there and coming back with a few other dollar bills. That is fucking crazy. Now I'm the bank. Yeah, yeah. What a beautiful feeling. I'm not talking about flexing about having investments. I'm talking about the freedom and the confidence that is the equal opposite to this feeling of debt. I wish everyone could get to that other side. So that year or two that you're sacrificing by eating shit for two years, it's only gonna get you more freedom and more happiness and more self-confidence. Today we're talking about debt, shame. When the debt isn't the real problem, but the shame and guilt keeping you silent really is the real problem. That financial stress that comes with being deep in debt or just being bad with money. You feel like you're in a sinking boat called life with a lot of leaking holes in it, and you feel hopeless, like you're drowning with no plan. This is called adulting going wrong. It's a rude awakening. You get the wrong roadmap to happiness that most adults told you was how you get to happiness. Rich. I know both you and I have been through a lot in life, and I I'll be honest, I think I recently started figuring out how to manage my personal finances, no later than three or four years ago. How unfair is it that an 18-year-old, a 19-year-old, is giving this roadmap to life, a happy life, quote unquote. And the minute they graduate college, two or three years out, they already got a card note, they got a college note, and God forbid, if these motherfuckers bought a house out of college, we're talking about a hundred thousand dollars plus in debt, way before you get that first real paycheck from your career. That to me sounds like a trap. And a lot of the data and research that we've seen, a lot of these young guys are falling into depression early and they're falling behind in life. And a lot of episodes, I feel like we're strong on our community because we feel like they can do better. We know they can do better. This one is one that I definitely got to give our community the benefit of the doubt. This shame that you experience from being in debt is a tough one. And not a lot of young men even climb out of it until they're there in the mid to late 30s. Rich, is there a time in your life that you can remember that you knew you had debt and financial problems? And how did it make you feel? Were you ever too embarrassed to share it? Because that seems to be the real problem here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

Yeah, bro. I remember being 19, filing for bankruptcy, being with my girlfriend at the time, and just receiving phone calls, bro, from debt collectors, phone calls for phone calls to try to find where my location was so that they could repossess my car at the time. And I just remember feeling miserable, feeling that pit in my stomach, like, man, this this is such a shameful time in my life. I'm logging into my online banking, I'm seeing a negative balance, I'm incurring late fee after late fee. The bank is calling me saying, hey, you've just gotten five overdrafts in the last 30 days, and just no end incitement, bro. And I just remember feeling like, man, this is a this is a terrible weight on my shoulders. And I just started to feel less like a man, and you know, just trying to figure out what is the best way to get out of this situation and and become smarter with money. And that's where we're here to unpack.

SPEAKER_01: 3:43

Yeah, the way you just framed that is very relatable. And the title of the show being debt shame, not really being smart with your personal finances early is a subject that I'll be honest with you, Rich. When you sent me a list of topics that we wanted to discuss in the next four weeks, this one almost felt too close to home. Because I'm 39 now. I wouldn't say until I was probably in my early 30s, mid-30s, probably 33 or 34, I started taking my finances very serious. And a lot of that came from what you just said. I would pop shit and be proud of everything in my life. But when it came to money and knowing how much debt I had with car loans, credit cards and college loans, and a few other things that I don't want to mention here. The people that I owed money to, those were the subjects that I kind of steered away from because I felt embarrassed. There's no other way I could say it. I remember looking at my phone, and every time I would see a phone number that I didn't know, I was 90% sure that it was a debt collector. And I would never pick it up in front of anyone, and I would always hide mail that would come in from little things like Macy's or uh financial aid or people that have loaned me money and credit cards that I took that I wasn't paying. I was barely paying the minimum and missing a lot of payments. Rich, we're not financial experts by any means, and this is a subject that is a little difficult for us to talk about because it's one that we have too much experience with. But you know what? Our community really wanted it, so it's worth discussing. I want to discuss one part, Rich, that I know you can relate to. In my early 20s and mid-20s, I remember getting my little punk ass paycheck from my part-time job and it literally being gone. Just off top. No money for me, all money for the people I had to pay back. Have you ever experienced anything like that?

SPEAKER_00: 5:45

Yeah, bro, all the time. And I feel like most people are in debt, bro. Like people are faking the funk these days. Everybody is is on social media, they see what what cars other people are driving, the clothes that they're wearing, the vacations that they're going on. And, you know, they're they're trying to either follow what all of their other peers are doing, or they just feel like they need to be on that same time, you know what I mean, on that same level. And I will say, bro, in the pursuit of like trying to follow flex culture, especially when you don't got it, you're gonna dig yourself in a deeper hole than you're already in, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 6:22

Yeah, think about it. One in every 13 men under the age of 30 have over$40,000 in college loans debt. So that's$40,000, one in every 10, right? So out of every 10 guys you see, one is under$40,000 in loans. And then we have another stat, which when we were doing our pre-show prep, Rich, we were shocked. The average car loan for anyone is$700 a month, with one in every 10 people paying$1,000 per month. So you know they have a luxury car. Not to mention what they're paying in um finance, not to mention what they're paying in insurance, not to mention what they're paying in anything else with that car. That alone, based on the research we have, one in every 10 men are already in about$2,000 to$3,000 worth of loan and debt repayment. And that's just car and school.

SPEAKER_02: 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 7:20

We're not talking about anything outside of that. Being$2,000 in debt and only making five to$7,000 a month after two paychecks, bro, you're already underwater and you haven't even grew out your mustache. That's fucking crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 7:35

Bro, I have a story where a couple jobs ago, I was uh I was working as an IT specialist, and I think they started me out as like entry level 65k or something. And maybe six months into the job, we had an intern that started, and I think interns got paid a little bit above minimum wage, nothing too crazy. But two weeks after this intern started, bro, this dude pulled up with a BMW in the lock. And we were all just looking at each other like, how, bro? Like, you're an intern. Like, how did how did you obtain this car? And I'm, you know, I'm sure he had better circumstances. Like he was still living at home. He was just wrapping up college. So there were probably things in his life that allowed him the flexibility to go out and and and spend that. But, you know, we just all felt like that money could have been better spent elsewhere. Like, do you know once you graduate, you're gonna have all these student loans? So this$600,$700 car payment for this BMW, like you're you're either trying to flex for this new job, trying to flex for us or or for other people. But it's just, I feel like it's a poor, poor decision to make when you're just wrapping up college and entering the workforce.

SPEAKER_01: 8:46

Yeah, Rich, it's a catch 22. And I I mean, I'm 39, you're 37. We have the luxury of life experience and hindsight. But I want to take a moment and really get into the shoes of our viewer and our listener. You're in your early 20s and you don't have a girlfriend, or you are currently dating. You're trying to make something of yourself. So women are very important to a young man, right? You may or may not have a lot of friends. And if you do have a lot of friends, you want to go out and socialize. You want to build your friend network, you want to do things that are fun, right? That requires money. And by proxy, there are probably going to be women there when you go out, right? So that's one and two together. But you need money, you need to look good, right? You you want to go to these places. So hypothetically, if your friends are all going to a festival and a three-day pass is$900, a music festival, a three-day pass,$900. Your friends are going on a little weekend trip, you're graduated, you might take a little bit of credit, you might put it on your credit card, fly to uh Barbados, fly to Mexico, right? All these things are like which one is the real priority? Is it school? Getting an education? You need a loan for that. Is it getting a vehicle so you can move around? Well, you need a loan for that too. Is it women? Is it a social life? Everything requires some form of investment, whether it's time or money. And these, I don't want to call them predators, but there definitely is predatorial behavior for people who loan young people money. They know that you're your most vulnerable at that time and you're not gonna do your due diligence. So at Justin, at 39 years old, is fucking shouting like some back to the future shit. I'm in a I'm in a time machine. Like, no, no, no, no, don't don't lease a$100,000 Cadillac EXT at 24 years old. You should probably put that money into college or developing a skill. But I had to learn the hard way, Rich. I took the fucking loan. I got the truck and I wound up paying for that for literally the rest of my adult life. Man, I am so sympathetic and empathetic to our community. Cause at that age, you're so conflicted with the things you really want and how easy it is just to get approval for a loan on any of it.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

Yeah, that's true. And I agree with you. You do need all of those things, right? But at the same time, you need to have the ability to understand how it is that you live in your means, right? Like if you're in your early 20s, I know you want that Cadillac, I know you want that BMW or or the range or whatever the hell. Tesla, you need the Tesla now. Tesla. Yeah, the Tesla is the new hot shit. That's cool, bro. But like, bro, just out of college or or just getting your first job, you're just gonna go out and get a Tesla or lease a Tesla. Like, I feel like delayed gratification is much needed here because you're going to get to a place in life where you're going to be able to make more money, and then you can afford some of the more luxury items in life. But in your early 20s, bro, just graduating college, just getting your first job, just getting a little bit of a sense of bringing money in and going out and buying luxury, spending all of your money on just luxury items just to keep yourself happy. Like I think that's a trap.

SPEAKER_01: 12:17

You know, delayed gratification is a phrase that comes up often in our podcast. Actually, we just put out an episode recently, um, you know, skills to learn in your twenties, and delayed gratification was definitely one that came up a few times. But Rich, I don't think we're being fair to the 19 and 20 and 21 year old version of us. Because that requires perspective. There's literally photos and stories that we've said on this podcast of us at that age that didn't even even if we knew what the word delayed gratification was, I don't think you can really comprehend in that moment when you take that loan, how it's gonna affect you in the future. So let's do a little exercise here, Rich. How or what advice would you give 90-year-old you right now that would have saved you the bankruptcy that you went through? And from what I understood on the pre-show meeting, you had mentioned that your car got repo. That's something that 19-year-old you most definitely didn't have this information. And even if you did, I'm pretty sure you still would have taken the loans.

SPEAKER_00: 13:22

Yeah, bro, but my my mistakes were were driven by what I thought was love at the time. So that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01: 13:29

Everything is justifiable to a teenager or somebody in their early 20s in the moment.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I I thought I I love this person and I didn't care about the amount of debt I was gonna get into or maxing on my credit cards or taking over her car note because I just thought I was gonna be with this woman forever and we were just gonna figure it out together. Obviously, that didn't play out the way I thought it was going to play out, but I got burned really bad from that situation. And yeah, you're you're right. I I think every young person's situation is unique. I think everyone's gonna go through different challenges in life. But having the ability early on to educate yourself on a little bit of financial literacy, just understanding what like interest rates are, under understanding not to max out your credit cards because they affect your credit score, you know, understanding how to build the six-month proper savings, like little things like that are gonna set you up so that when you get to your 30s, bro, it's a lot less stress. Like you're not starting from zero, you're not starting from a place of having to climb out of all this debt because you made all these mistakes in your 20s and now you're in your 30s trying to catch up and you know, having to pay all these debts back. So yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_01: 14:44

Rich, you know what I think would be a good exercise for our community. We are gonna get into actionable advice a little bit later. We'll go through a clear list. Rich and I will go back and forth and, you know, give give our community some real hard lines to live within. But for the sake of this conversation and having empathy for the young man that doesn't even know that he is upside down in debt right now, I think if we could bucket out the three things that keep coming up in our research that are the biggest loans that you could take at this age, and what could be a preventative measure you can take in order to not have to take a$100,000 car loan or$50,000 in college loans? What are some things that in these three buckets of lifestyle, which could be housing or clothing or just looking good in appearance? Housing, which is, you know, paying rent, where do you live, a car, and education, having a skill and literally investing in yourself. Which one do you want to start with, Rich? Because I want to give them an alternate option for something that can accumulate quickly and hinder you for the next 20 years of your life when it comes to taking a loan.

SPEAKER_00: 15:54

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we we could start with housing because I feel like this one's pretty simple. And I think we oftentimes make uh a financial mistake because we want to have lived experience, which there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01: 16:09

But what does that what does that mean, lived experience?

SPEAKER_00: 16:12

Like you want to be able to live the college dorming lifestyle, right? Everyone wants to experience that, but there is a hefty price tag when it comes to living that lifestyle of on campus amongst your friends.

SPEAKER_01: 16:25

Do you do you get what I'm saying? Predatorial. You think the loan officers at these colleges don't know that that is what they're selling over an education? Oh, for sure, yeah. Are you gonna be the friend that's not on campus when everybody's commuting and the girl you love and her other cute friends are there? It's crazy to me. It is a predatorial move to be like, look, you can get your education for one dollar for every$10 you take on a loan, or you can also live on campus and enjoy the full experience.

SPEAKER_00: 16:55

Yeah, that's true. And my advice for housing would be get yourself a uh a roommate, a best friend, a really close friend, and find an apartment a little bit off campus. And that way, not only are you saving money, but your spot can also be the place where people gather up and have a couple of drinks or have a study session together. Because even though the the dorms are very convenient, that they're very limited, bro. They they have curfews, like you can't bring alcohol.

SPEAKER_01: 17:26

Like by the way, this is great advice because you're not speaking to the money. You're speaking of how it could fuck their night up.

SPEAKER_00: 17:33

Yeah, yeah. So not not only can you save money by living off campus, but you could you could have a I think a more elevated experience by living off campus. You're saving money because you're roommating with with someone you know, and you're not paying that premium of being on campus, and you have a little bit more freedom with your friends when it comes to like hanging out, drinking, or studying or things like that.

SPEAKER_01: 17:56

Yeah, I I think that's great advice. Another one I would give about housing and where do you live is college is not always the best route if you're really just trying to get stability in your life and trying to get some money in your pocket. And again, we're not gurus, we're not gods, we don't claim to be anything other than two guys in our mid to late 30s who have life experience. So if you want to go to college, cool, go to college. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you don't have a grant, a loan, uh if you don't have anything that is going to help you subsidize the amount of money you're gonna take in a loan, you should look into alternative options. You should possibly look into just getting your associate's degree and then planning after that. You can look into a trade school, you can look into something that's not gonna cost you$80,000 after you're done. And then when you look at the hire ability of your degree when you graduate, it's fucking 2%. Now you got an$80,000 note and your entry-level job for your degree doesn't even exist. So you got to take a bullshit job doing something else that is not gonna cover the amount of money you have to pay back these loans. So definitely really look into what it is you're going to school for and make sure it's not just about popping out and lifestyle. And that's hard for me to say because a lot of the decisions I made when I was young was strictly vanity. But if I could go on a time machine, yeah, when it came to college, I took an obscene amount of loans up front, Rich, just because I was getting a kickback for canceling a class right before Financial Aid cut me the check. So hypothetically, if I got eight classes and they were paying financial aid, was giving me a loan for those eight classes, I would cut the eighth class, only take seven, take the money for the seventh class that I canceled, and I would keep the money and I would spend it on clothes. I thought I was never gonna have to pay that money back. Bro, I'm still paying for the interest on those funds. Fucking Ralph Laurent sweaters that I bought back then, them polo sweaters I bought back then. A fucking$120 sweater wound up being like a thousand dollar sweater because I I wasn't good at math and I didn't really think about the loans that I was taking in school. I was just thinking about the lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00: 20:16

Yeah, bro. Man, I had a loan where I was going to community college for a semester. I racked up maybe$6,000 in loans. And I ended up training, I ended up dropping out of all of those classes, transferring to a different school. And once I graduated, they were like, oh, by the way, you have a$10,000 debt to a school that you never finished in. You didn't get the college credits because you dropped out of the course. And I just randomly had to pay$10,000 for nothing, absolutely nothing. Just a mistake of me dropping all the courses and transferring to a different school. So yeah, bro.

SPEAKER_01: 20:56

Now we spoke about college. We spoke about housing. The one that we haven't spoken about, and I'm curious to know what you think, because you had a situation where you did have a vehicle repo'd, and repoed, for those that don't know, is repossessed. Is when you when you're delinquent on your payments, they come and take the car that the bank owns because they gave you the loan.

SPEAKER_00: 21:14

A very strong man comes.

SPEAKER_01: 21:17

He kisses your girlfriend in the mouth and then he takes your car. He turns you around and fucking gets to spank you for being a bad boy. And he takes your car and you lose all dignity. How was that feeling, Rich? And if you can go back in time and give yourself advice as it relates to a car loan, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00: 21:38

Bro, not only was my car repossessed, but I was in transition of moving from the apartment that I had that I lost back to my mom's house. So the car was full of my personal belongings. God damn. So my car got repossessed with all my personal belongings. And I lost everything, bro. I lost the car and all my personal belongings. Oh shit. Because I didn't have enough money to like recover it. And they they had taken the vehicle like three hours away from where I live. So I had no means of like going there and retrieving my stuff. So I really lost it all. But I'm very passionate about this one, bro, because I feel like I argue with my friends all the time about the difference between leasing a car versus financing the car. And I'm a big proponent of financing your car if you're in the position to do so, and only obtaining cars that are certified pre-owned with a little bit of mileage on them: 10,000, 15,000, maybe 20,000, just a year, a year and a half on the road, right? A little bit used, but it's significantly more marked down than a brand new car straight out the lot with zero miles would be. I'm not of the mindset of leasing a car that you have to return every three years for the sake of adopting flex culture and being like, oh yeah, Rich has a brand new car every three years, right? To sort of like keeping up with the Joneses is like, bro, I'm good. I I much rather my flex is paying off my car and having zero car note at the end of that finance. That's my flex.

SPEAKER_01: 23:12

The flex culture is something speaking directly my language, Rich. I can't be a hypocrite. I work in a very vain business. I grew up as someone that didn't have a lot. So anytime I had an opportunity to show people that I was an important person, it usually happened because I bought clothes or something that made me feel important and look important and feel more confident in myself. But as the saying goes, at some point you're gonna have to pay the piper. And whatever you put on a credit card in the name of flex culture, and that's including cars more than anything, that seems to be the biggest expense for young men. You're probably gonna end up paying anywhere between two times, if you're lucky, to 20 times in interest of what you could have paid if you would have done what Rich basically just said. You could have leased a car or financed the car that had what you said, what would be the sweet spot of miles that you think?

SPEAKER_00: 24:08

Anywhere between 10,000 to 20,000 is my personal preference, which is sort of like a year to two years of uh of use.

SPEAKER_01: 24:17

Yeah. So, I mean, right there in that sweet spot, you're probably saving yourself anywhere between$10,000 to$20,000 on a car if it's a nice car. So off top, you're already getting a decent amount. And then what you put down on that car is probably what you're gonna wind up paying. And I think the one that kills most people, myself included, Rich, I got killed in my first car negotiation. And you know I used to sell luxury cars. Where I was selling luxury cars and finessing people into taking eight-year, five-year fucking leasing terms, I got finessed by the fucking people that I worked with to take a five-year lease on my car, six-year lease, where I was paying that shit forever. But all it was, it was under the name of the biggest trick in the leasing world book or the financing world book. What is it? They're selling you on a monthly payment. But if you take anything and you amortize it over 20 fucking years, of course I can always get your monthly payment down. But how long are you gonna be paying for this? Is the real question. And how much interest rate am I putting on it? That is the fine line, and I feel like a lot of the details that a lot of people don't look into before they take a loan on anything. It's what you're paying over time. So, Rich, I think we kind of addressed anybody that might be in the middle of making a decision, may have not made a decision, or have enough time to correct their decision. So I think this episode is probably more dedicated to the man who is feeling shameful and is losing sleep. Like this shit literally has him feeling like he's less of a man because he's very far behind in his finances. Rich, just because this subject is so important and it hits home, you what is that mind state like? Just so to kind of get that out before we get into some actionable advice.

SPEAKER_00: 26:10

Yeah, bro, shameful. You feel less of a man, you feel like you feel like you're a failure, you feel like you're a burden, you feel like you're in this complex financial situation that you can't quite figure out. And, you know, I would say, bro, at any time that I felt in debt, and this still happens to me to this day, it literally affects my physical being. Like, like I start to feel nauseous and I get headaches if I look at a bill that I wasn't anticipating or just something that I wasn't expecting and that just fucks up my finances. Like I physically feel like a pit in my stomach. Like, damn, I need to take care of this because I don't want this debt looming over me. And you know, if you're not in the position to pay that debt and you have to live with that shame for an extended period of time, bro, that shit fucks with your identity, bro. You start to feel like a failure, you start to feel like a loser, you start to feel inadequate as a man. Like, why can't I figure this out? Why do I need to be in debt? And I will say, bro, if this goes on for an extended period of time and this translates into the dating world, and you're single and you're trying to court a girl and you don't have the money to take her out to eat or to buy her roses or buy her a small gift, naturally it's gonna really fuck with you mentally. You know, and it could impact your dating life as well.

SPEAKER_01: 27:34

Yeah, it really sucks to be the guy that pops out with your friends, and you're the one that doesn't have a car and also doesn't chip in on the gas. And when we get to the function, you don't got no money for the hookah, you don't got no money for drinks. If people start ordering shit, you're the one that's off top. You're like, yo, yo, I'm good. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not eating nothing today, I'm not drinking nothing today, I'm just doing water and I'm here for the vibes. Nobody likes being with that guy. Fuck women. Your friends don't like being with that guy. Women definitely don't like being around that guy. So I get it, Rich. That feeling of being a burden and feeling like, man, I don't matter to society. I don't matter to anyone because I am a burden not only to myself, but anybody else that I'm around. And then you kind of become the guy that becomes a pleaser, even though you don't want to be a pleaser. Because if people you hang out with that are willing to like put some money up and hold you down, you kind of gotta like be their yes, man. You gotta always gotta be at their hip and be laughing at their jokes when they're not funny. And you know what I mean? Like, it's a fucked up life to live when you're cracked. So that all enters your psyche. You feel like less of a person, you feel like somebody that is not contributing to, you know, I've said this on previous episodes, and it's more important today than ever. The man who is useless is no benefit to his tribe. If you can't do anything for the 10 people you're around the most, you are a liability. You're a baby, you're not a grown man. And that shit seeps into your psyche. And I think that's what we're talking about today: the depression that is a ripple effect of not having your finances together and being in debt.

SPEAKER_00: 29:20

Yeah. And you you know what adds to that shame too, just like having to reach out to people and needing help, like going to your mom, bro, and asking her for money, going to your brother and asking them for money, going to a mentor, going to a relative, your grandma, whoever, anyone that's not you, where you have to reach out and receive funds from, that guilt, bro, that shame is something that's undescribable because you feel like you're at your lowest point, right? Especially if you have a job and the job that you have is not enough for you to pay all your bills and sustain uh a normal, healthy lifestyle. Yeah, man. That one right there, I feel like contributes heavily to the shame and and sort of the identity issues that a man could be feeling.

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

Rich, you you just agitated me in a way that made me feel like angry and sad for anyone that's in this situation because I know this situation. Justin Duran knows this feeling of shame.

SPEAKER_02: 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:25

I was in a relationship with someone that financially was making two to three times more than me. And that wasn't the problem. She never mentioned it. It was how I felt in the relationship. I felt like less of a person. Anytime she would want to go on vacation or go to a certain restaurant, I would have to figure out a way to not go or put it on a credit card in order to like hang out for the night. And I knew every time I was doing that, I wasn't addressing what was most important and I was making sure that I was above water and I had my feet on the ground. And that leads me to actionable advice number one, because this shit is so personal to me, Rich. If you feel like you have debt shame and you're not good with your personal finances, you should not be doing anything else other than fixing your motherfucking money. Yeah. I'm serious. If you have an overdrawn bank account, if you are the liability in your relationship, you're not bringing in any finances. If you can't hang out with your friends because your funds are not right, and you're always asking for people to give you shit, loan you shit, hold me down. I got you, bro. Listen, there is another group chat without you in it, and they're shitting on you because you're a fucking anchor. You need to be a sail, you need to be somebody that helps the boat move forward, not helps the boat sink. So, with that said, I'm gonna stop putting belt to ass and stop being difficult and mean to our community, and I'm gonna start offering you some actionable advice. There is a phrase that I love, and it is true because I've applied it to my own personal life. If you take a calendar year, any year, I would say 30 days, but I need you to do 12 months. You can have anything you desire in this world as long as it's one thing and only one thing. Why is that so important in the actionable advice section? Because if you shut down the other 99 things going on in your life and you only focused on one thing, you're gonna get it. That is just the way the world works. So if not being stable financially is the one thing that has an effect on your life that ripples into everything in your life, your friends, your family, your girl, your lifestyle, your mood, you're feeling depressed, nothing else matters other than getting your situation right. So what you have to do right now, actionable advice number one, is put your fucking head down and focus on this and only this. That is your only obligation from December 2025 all the way to December 2026. You only focus on getting your money right, nothing else. And like I said, if you focus on one thing and only one thing, life will give you that one thing. But the key is it has to only be one thing. And last piece of advice for that section of actionable advice, Rich, is you can't ignore it, it's not gonna go away. Debt collectors will find you. How do I know? I moved in five different apartments in six years when I was in California. I wasn't ducking nobody, I was just moving for my job. And these motherfuckers found me. Electric company found me, the water company found me, the debt collector for uh the DMV found me, they all found me. And it happened when I was trying to get an ID or leave the country. They're gonna find you, so you can't ignore it. Get to it, start today, take care of this problem today.

SPEAKER_00: 34:01

For sure. I love that piece of advice. My second actionable advice, I think, would be to just fix the spending leaks. So I feel like, bro, I had a situation where I was auditing all my finances and just seeing where all my money was going to. And in one month, I had$600 worth of uh food delivery charges, meaning Grubhub, Uber Eats, DoorDash, all these food delivery subscriptions and all these food deliveries that I was making throughout the month amounted to$600. I couldn't believe it. I told my girl, I'm like, bro, this is ridiculous. Like I could buy$250,$300 worth of groceries, and that should last us most of the month. So fix the spending leaks, bro. I would add to that something that I've tweaked about myself, bro, is I'm done with like getting the new iPhone every year. That's vanity, bro. You're chasing vanity. I work in the tech world. So for me, getting the new iPhone that came out every December or November or whenever the iPhones come out, it was a way of flexing. Like, oh yeah, the tech guy has the latest phone. Bro, I'm two versions behind. But guess what? My phone is paid for, and it works exactly the same as the last two versions of the iPhone, right? So that's a fact. I think I saw a statistic online that said people change their iPhones quicker than they change something in their wardrobe, which is crazy to believe. You have more clothes that you wear longer than you do your phone. For whatever reason, people now feel the need to change their phones every 12 months. And that's not something that you have to do to just continue pleasing, appeasing, and following flex culture.

SPEAKER_01: 35:47

Rich, I know motherfuckers that put water in their ketchup and have ice trays in their freezer that don't have any ice in them, that get a new iPhone every year. I'm talking about motherfuckers is hustling backwards.

SPEAKER_02: 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:01

We are hustling backwards. Yeah. That what you just said is hustling forward. Hustling is taking advantage of a financial situation to make more money in the future. Hustling backwards is what you just said. How your life fucked up, but you got the new iPhone every year. How your life fucked up, but you got the new Amiri's? How is your life fucked up, but you got Balenciagas? How is your life fucked up, but you're popping out every weekend at every festival and you're at all the new hookah spots? You're at every show, you're posting a different restaurant every other night. Do you know how much it costs to for two people to go out to dinner in any major city? LA, New York, Miami, Texas, certain parts of Jersey. Do you know how much it costs to take two grown adults to eat appetizers, dinner, dessert, drinks? Rich, it's north of$500 fucking dollars for a decent calm night out with your girl.

SPEAKER_00: 36:58

Yeah, if you throw some drinks in there.

SPEAKER_01: 37:00

You can't tell me, bro. You can't tell me that you focused on your debt when this is what you're doing. So flex culture is huge, Rich. And I love your actionable advice of fix the spending leaks. I love the way you frame that. Because if you're on the boat called life and your shit is sinking because you have these little holes, you have to patch that up. And I think that is the foundation of personal finance, Rich. I would love you to get into this a little bit because I feel like you have a more practical, simple way of looking at money. When you say personal finance, the word used to intimidate me because it's like a technical term. But what are we really talking about? Just monitoring your money in versus money out, right? Like it's not that deep.

SPEAKER_00: 37:43

Yeah, I think it's just that simple. And when you speak about money in, right, it's just documenting all of that, right? How much do you earn from your paycheck? How much do you earn from a hobby or um, you know, selling stuff on eBay or or Facebook Marketplace, all of that money aggregated into one bucket, right? Bonuses, et cetera. And then money out is just calculating your expenses and creating a budget for yourself that says, this is how much money comes in, this is how much money comes out, this is how much money I could save. And really just understanding how to disperse the money that comes in and effectively, right? Obviously, if you have a higher debt to income ratio, you have a problem because you're always going to be underwater week over week, paycheck over paycheck. So you're gonna have to reverse that debt to income ratio where you have more income than you have from debt.

SPEAKER_01: 38:40

I'll give a simple analogy, Rich. Here I have money in the bank. Here I have money in. The more I drink, money out. The more I put in, money in. Motherfuckers is licking the cup. There ain't no more water left. That is the problem. Fundamentally, it's not that deep. Why do you think it's so hard for people to wrap their minds around it? I know why it was hard for me, but I'm curious to know what do you think?

SPEAKER_00: 39:08

Yeah, I mean, from what I've seen, I think it's mostly swipe culture.

SPEAKER_01: 39:13

That's good. Like the world has made it convenient to spend money and you don't feel it.

SPEAKER_00: 39:17

Yeah, everything is digital. People think like when you purchase crypto, people think it's just fake money.

SPEAKER_01: 39:22

Amazon, one click, shit is at your front door. You don't feel that.

SPEAKER_00: 39:26

Yeah, you don't feel that. But then next thing you know, you look at your your monthly bill, you're like, oh shit, I spent a thousand dollars on Amazon expenses, and you have no idea how many clicks it took to gather that that thousand dollar debt.

SPEAKER_01: 39:39

You mentioned subscriptions, and I think we're not like money hoarder type people. We're not a financial channel, so let's just start there. We're also not like counting nickels and dimes, spending our day aggregating and fucking uh optimizing. That's not us. But you did mention something on the pre show meeting, Rich. Little shit like subscription. That are constantly being charged to you. If you don't monitor that, that could accumulate too, because you're literally paying monthly for something that you don't even use anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 40:10

Yeah, bro. I was I was saying on the pre-show that I'm a cable cutter, so I don't have like full-on cable, which I think costs like two, three hundred dollars a month. But I looked at all my subscriptions, streaming service subscriptions, and I'm paying just as much for all of those subscriptions as I am if I had cable. And it makes you wonder, right? You add all these small expenses up and they add up. Especially if you have auto-renew on all these subscriptions. Now this shit is just taking money month over month, month over month, and you never cancel it. That's money out that you're not factoring for.

SPEAKER_01: 40:47

Yeah. I mean, original point, I think we'll take that as actionable advice number three is understand basic personal finance. And what is personal finance? To a younger Justin, that word intimidated me, but it's pretty simple. It's money in versus money out. If you don't make enough money, you're gonna put it on a credit card. And that's what creates debt. Because every time you take a new credit card and you charge something that's not there, the banks are really fucking smart. They know this motherfucker ain't gonna pay this back. So once he doesn't make that minimum payment one time, I'm charging him 30% APR for the$2,000 that he has sitting in his credit card. And that motherfucker just grows over time. So now you're not just paying for the Paul Mains, you're paying for the ball mains plus$50,$70,$100. I mean, that's personal finance, money in versus money out. And the debt collectors are there to make you feel good today, but you'll be sick tomorrow. And that's where a lot of the stress and depression comes from. It's because you can't catch up. So that is our number three. Rich, I have a number four that you pretty much mentioned, and I just want to bring it back because I think it's so important. Playing status games is a losing game after a certain age. I added that caveat because I had the original phrase written down, but I do believe that when you're young, it's almost impossible not to have to play status games because you don't even know who you are as a teenager. So you want to be a part of the right social group. You want to go out enough where you can meet enough girls where you could either be a peer amongst beautiful women, or you could at least be in the runnings to meet a beautiful woman. We can't be hypocrites and give young men advice about dating and then also tell them to stay home in a dark room and save all day. That doesn't make sense. I do understand why people play status games when they're young. But once you got a girl, once you got a college degree, and once you know where you're going to be living for the next four or five years, you don't have to kick it with everybody. You don't have to go out all the time. You don't have to be around everyone all the time. And you don't have to constantly show your friends and your family all the new shit you got just for likes, clicks, and validation, knowing damn well you'll be paying for that motherfucking engagement ring for the next 20 years. That shit is a losing game. I'm happy I got ahead of that in my life, and I don't really come from a family that was big on luxury. I mean, like big dog luxury, but I do know a lot of people that come from families that do well for themselves. They live in hell because they're constantly playing status games. And that's something that you definitely have to look out for if you're falling into debt more and more because you're just trying to keep up with the Joneses.

SPEAKER_00: 43:38

Yeah. That brings me to actionable advice number five. I feel like you should set hard rules on your purchases. So you should do things like no purchases over$100, no purchases over$50. Like just set boundaries to your spending, especially if you're on a journey on paying down debt and you have a strategy of becoming ultimately debt-free. If you're not strict about your spending, if you're not strict about uh boundary setting, you're going to fall victim to what you just said, just the flex culture, the pop-out. You're going to get paychecks that you're not supposed to be spending on the concert or a vacation, and you're supposed to be spending it paying down this debt. But because you never set any boundaries, now you're just all over the place and you're not following your strategy. So I think this one is critical. You have to be able to set boundaries and set strict rules that says I'm not making any purchases over$100 until this debt is paid off.

SPEAKER_01: 44:40

You know, Rich, you just made me think of a phrase that is, you are who you surround yourself with. And I think number four and number five of our actionable device fits right into this one. What you just said is important. Be strict about your spending, set boundaries. And what I said was playing status games is a losing game. You know what is the linchpin and the match to the fire in that situation? The girl that you choose as your significant other in your life and your closest friends. Yep. Do you know where I'm going with this? I don't know if you have a response off top. Oh, yeah. Because you can be disciplined, but if your friends are always spending money and they're constantly showing you how well they're doing, and your girl loves to spend money, you're almost in a fucked up situation because you want to be in that relationship, but it's going the opposite direction of your goals.

SPEAKER_00: 45:36

Yeah, for sure, bro. Your support system needs to know what journey you're on, essentially, and they need to support you in that journey. If your goal is to pay down student loan debt or a car note or credit card debt, and your best friend is always trying to have you go to the most expensive restaurants every weekend, or your girl's always trying to go to the mall and just ball out, like that's in direct conflict to what you're trying to do. So your support system needs to be supportive about what it is that you're trying to do as far as paying down this debt. So I I agree, bro, there's a direct correlation between your inner circle and how supportive they are with your debt journey and um and where you want to be.

SPEAKER_01: 46:20

Rich, now that I think about it after you say that, I'm gonna keep it a bug. I think if I had the choice, if a genie just appeared in front of me and said, you have to take a 20-year commitment on one of these five things: a house, a car, a job, a college, like like education, or a woman. And all five of them had the the scenario where they were gonna be an anchor in your life that you were gonna have to pay back. I think the the biggest liability of those five is a woman that is not on the same page as you when it comes to building wealth. But in this episode, it's not even about building wealth, it's what comes before that. It's just breathing oxygen. Someone that doesn't understand that flex culture and playing status games is the worst way to live if you're trying to accumulate real life wealth. If I'm a broke boy and I don't have it, I have no fucking business being with a girl that has crazy spending habits and doesn't have anyone to pay for it other than me. You need to take the fucking leash off of that human in your life and let them roam in the park and find somebody else that can fulfill their fantasies on fucking living a lavish life because it's not gonna be you. The way your bank account is set up and the kind of money you're making is a little off with the person you're dating and what they want for themselves, and you have to see that reality way before anybody else does. She may be beautiful, but that bitch is a liability. Need to cut her loose. That is actionable advice for sure, Rich. Because I've seen a lot of good men sink because they can't keep up with the expenses that they want to keep up for their girlfriend and for what it's worth, their lifestyle, the lifestyle they want to portray.

SPEAKER_00: 48:17

Yeah, I agree with you to a certain extent, bro. I I feel like at the same time, being a man that's in debt is such a red flag for a woman, bro, that if you think about a couple coming together to ultimately get married, right? A wedding is very expensive. When you're joining two people's world, family, financials, all together, and you have$100,000 debt and she has a hundred thousand dollar savings, that's gonna cause conflict immediately in the relationship. Because now she's like, damn, now I got to solve for your negative$100,000, but I'm up$100,000. So that's a red flag for her. So I don't want to be too like kumbaya, like just be careful with the girl who wants to spend all your money. We're speaking about someone who potentially doesn't have money and is in debt. Like, you need to climb out of this shit because in the future, if you do get with a woman, she's probably gonna want to get married, she's probably gonna want a house, she's probably gonna want to be in a nice car. Sure, there's a distinction between a girl being happy with the basic essentials, and there's a difference between a girl that wants luxury, right? I think what you're saying is like be careful with the girl who wants luxury because that bitch could drive you down a very bad path where not only are you coming into the relationship with debt, but you're just getting into more debt to please her vanity luxury lifestyle. So there's there's sort of like a fine line there. I'm happy to spar with you on this and go back and forth.

SPEAKER_01: 49:51

No, no, we don't have to spar. I I got an easy one for you. I got a very easy one for you. The same rule you had for uh the value of a car, once you drive it off the lot, it drops 50%. The minute you drive it off the lot, you have that level of rationale for a car. I'm telling you, the minute you are officially linked to another human, the minute you drive that off the lot, the value of that relationship could be more than a fucking car because you're with that person for life. So if they have spending habits that cannot be satiated because they're tied to looking cool and looking like they're important to their lame ass friend group, you are gonna have to be a part of that whether you like it or not. Even if she made a lot of money, how the fuck are y'all gonna build together if she's constantly spending and you're constantly saving? While you're patching the holes in the boat, she's poking more holes in the boat or bringing water and pouring it into the boat. I can't imagine being with somebody that's not in the same mindset as me. Now, I'm not bashing women, and I'm glad you did say that, Rich, because uh I I tend to have that type of perspective because I am a man, unfortunately. But what I was saying, and I think you made the point clearer than I did, it works both ways. If you're with a guy that is$100,000 in debt, that dude, back to actionable advice number one, he has no fucking business claiming a woman that is that beautiful with spending habits. Bro, you need to focus on fucking living in your mom's basement and getting your life together. You got no motherfucking business dealing with the shorties right now. You need to keep your ass at home and get your money together and get a Gillette razor, give yourself a little lineup, and that's it. Go back outside and work your two jobs and work an Uber and serving fucking people at a restaurant in order to get out of debt. I do believe that. So the shade is not towards women. It works both ways. I'm just saying, young men, they fall in love and then they live their lives to keep the crown on the princess's head so they don't leave them. Bro, your whole life is gonna be in pain if that's the case.

SPEAKER_00: 51:58

Nah, that that I agree with. I think that there's certainly a a fine line between that and yeah, bro, who you pick as a partner could either be your biggest blessing or your biggest liability. It's up to you to decide which one she is for you.

SPEAKER_01: 52:14

Rich, I do want to say one that I think is very relevant right now, and it I think it's actionable. Advice number eight is based on the research we've done before the show, which come from very credible sources, our research tells us that one in every two men are going through this, some version of this. One in every two. That means between me and you, one of us is struggling and we're not saying it. It's probably me. So do you get what I'm saying? One in every two men are going through this. And the actionable advice to the young men in our community is if you're going through shame that is associated to not having your personal finances together or having too much debt, you should know one very important thing. You are not alone. There are other people going through this, and this goes back to the core of our episode, Rich. The shame comes from not feeling proud of yourself and feeling like an embarrassment. And you feel like, yeah, on the outside I look like I'm okay, but on the inside, I feel like my world is falling apart because I don't have anything together. Is sometimes speaking about it can help you. If you spoke to an older man in your family or your mother or somebody, not because you need money, not because you want somebody to take care of you. I think just owning it sometimes is half of the battle and acknowledging that you're going through this struggle. And you will feel less alone because you'll hear more people's stories.

SPEAKER_00: 53:42

Yeah, I agree, bro. And listen, you have to view the world with everyone and with your peers from a sense of like a place where everything involves circumstances. Everyone has different circumstances. Part of the problem that contributes to the shame is that you're looking at your peers, bro. You look at your peers, your coworkers, your colleagues, and everyone, because of flex culture, appears like they got it, or they have more than what they really have. So it's easy to have your psyche fall into that trap of like, damn, but it looks like they got it. Why don't I? But you have to understand everyone's playing the vanity game. When you go on Instagram, you're seeing the best pictures of everyone, the best clothing, the best when they have their fresh haircut, right? You're not seeing them opening up their bank account with a negative balance. That's not what they show you. So, yes, I feel like you should navigate the world understanding that everyone has different circumstances, and yours is different than everyone else's. And don't try to compare yourself to what everyone else is doing. Because to your point, Just, I feel like most people are in debt and they just quietly live in that shame, but go on Instagram and social media and flex something that they really don't have.

SPEAKER_01: 55:05

Rich, it's such a great point because I personally live in a world of vanity. I work in entertainment and I live in Los Angeles. You couldn't get more vain than that combination when it comes to flex culture and how young people present themselves online. I literally know people that go to a restaurant with me and a few other people, won't order a motherfucking thing, won't eat a motherfucking thing, won't pay because they didn't order or eat anything, but they would post photos of what we ordered on their Instagram two days later. Not the day that we went. Two days. If that don't tell you, I know motherfuckers that go on vacation for two days and post photos for a week. I know motherfuckers that rent cars and do a photo shoot in the cars and post these photos throughout the year. Rich, if we are not hustling backwards with that type of energy, then I don't know what the fuck we're doing. This is how you get into debt. This is how you fall into these traps, these lifestyle traps, where you're trying to portray something you're not. I'm not against it. Trust me, I'm advocate number one when it comes to being young and doing this shit. But I'm old enough to realize that it's all full of shit. Because once you start bringing people around you that fall for these tricks that you do, these are the same people you want to get rid of when you start getting some real money. Because these are fucking vultures. These are people that you don't want to be around when you're doing good. The type of energy you put onto the world, you get back from the world. So be mindful of all that fake flexing shit because it's really getting you a whole lot of cap in your life. And you don't, I find that shit not these days, Rich. I'm cool with just knowing three or four people, bro, and going to two or three of my favorite restaurants. My social circle's strong, my lifestyle flexes light, and I'm really enjoying life. And I learned that later in my 30s. Then I wish I would have learned that sooner.

SPEAKER_00: 57:10

Yeah. And think about it. How much of an advantage is that for you now that you understand vanity, you understand reality versus flex culture. And you know, you pick and choose when you want to subscribe to that or not, right? Because I think the mentality of knowing that you can do something and you can pay for something, I'll give you a perfect example. Bro, I've never flown first class before in my entire life. Can I afford it? Yes. Can I justify the expense? No. All my flights have been three, four hours. I don't care to have more legroom for three, four hours or post pictures of myself in first class for those three or four hours because that's not important to me. I'd rather save the$250 and buy something else with that money than to have a small moment of uh of luxury for for the sake of posting it online and appearing to have more than what I have. So I think sometimes just the ability of you knowing that you can afford something and having the discipline not to go out and make that purchase, I think is a huge advantage.

SPEAKER_01: 58:22

I think that's a great point, Rich. And I do want to wrap up with number 10 actionable advice, but I do want you to have the floor because you mentioned this in our pre-show meeting. I think good actionable advice for a young man that feels depressed or feels filled with shame in themselves for having too much debt and not having a roadmap on how to pay it out. You mentioned it in our pre-show, is you just gotta know how to pay down debt. I think it looks intimidating when it's a big number, but you had mentioned some strategies that you've taken in your life to make that number seem less intimidating. So, actionable advice number 10 would be learn how to pay down debt. But Rich, I want you to kind of discuss what your strategy would be for somebody that has over$100,000 in debt and car loans and college loans and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00: 59:16

Yeah, I mean, listen, for starters, clearly what you've been doing up to this point has not been working because you've racked up all this debt and you need a reset. You need a four-week reset, you need a debt structure, a debt momentum system, you need a structured cadence for paying down this debt. How do you do that? Step one, you have to face it. You are in debt. Like this is reality. You owe 100,000, you owe 50,000, you owe whatever it is that you owe, but you owe it. You have to own that. And you have to deal with that shame and that guilt that comes with that. Because I feel like if you don't overcome those emotions and those feelings that this debt brings you, then naturally you're not. Going to build the momentum that it and the discipline that you need to pay this debt down. So, number one is face it, right? You owe this money. You did this. You have to come out of this debt. And then step two is just fix it. How do you fix it? We spoke about this earlier. The money in, money out. Calculate how much money comes in, calculate how much money comes out and how you can disperse and allocate funds appropriately to all your expenses and to all your bills. And naturally, you're going to have to automate this payment system. Because if you're not consistent about paying down the debt, then it's never going to go down, right? Because if you're and you're if you're inconsistent, you're going to be paying down debt. And whenever you get that urge or that itch for something new, you're going to rack up that credit card again. You're going to swipe that credit card again. The debt's going to continue to balloon if you're not structured and disciplined in order to automate this process.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:57

Rich, I do want to jump in when you say automate it. It's important because I had to do this four years ago in order to get ahead of my debt. And I had to own it, which you said as well, which by the way, incredible advice. And I'm sorry to cut you off. But when you own it and you face it, it allows you to tell yourself in full transparency while you're sitting in depression and sadness and you feel like less of a man, I'm not good with money. And I will get better with money. But in the meantime, I will automate this motherfucking$500 a month coming out of my check to pay down this debt because I'm not good with money. If I have to leave it to myself to wake up on the 15th to pay this debt down, I'm not going to do it because I'm going to find some other stupid shit to do with my money. And I just wanted to summarize that because I felt like you were talking to me. And that's kind of how I know I'm not lying. I'm really bad with money if I have a lot of it. But I've created systems where it automatically pays out. So I don't even get to see it. And if I don't see it, I don't think I can spend it. So it makes my life a lot easier.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:04

Yeah. I'm glad you put a bow in it. I mean, I think that that's sort of the best way to bring down uh debt. You have to face it, you have to fix it, you have to attack it. And then ultimately you have to automate it. But you have to stay disciplined and stay structured. You can't deviate and say, oh shit, the new iPhone came out. I'm gonna go get that. Or a lot of people do this where they're like, oh, it's Christmas, it's birthday, I'm gonna get myself something. No, you fucking don't. Yeah. Like this self-giving shit like needs to stop. Like if you're in debt, don't buy yourself shit. Stay on the course.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:39

Wait, wait, I'm hold on. So people that are in debt, they pay themselves back by buying something when they pay off the debt.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:45

I've seen this on social media where it's like we're hustling backwards. This is the problem. Oh, the new iPhone. Oh, a birthday present to myself. Oh, it's whatever. A birthday gift to myself. Stop buying yourself shit. You're in fucking debt. Pay the debt off and then buy yourself stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:03

You know, Rich, I think people believe talking about it is a strategy. People believe hiding from it is a strategy. People believe researching it is a strategy. Those are not strategies. There's no action in any of those three things I said. And that's pretty much what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:21

Yes. And a lot of motherfuckers are now living in reality. I just spoke to a close relative that lost his job, and motherfucker was saying, Yeah, I'm uh I'm collecting unemployment, but I'm I'm thinking about starting a business. And we just all looked at each other like, bro, how? The math ain't mathing. You just lost your job and you're collecting unemployment. The math ain't mathing. How are you going to start a business, my guy? Like you're not living in reality.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:51

Yeah, I haven't been on unemployment in a while. Are they paying you enough to start a business when you're on unemployment? Shit, that's news to me. I don't think so. I think you get 60% of your pay. Also, is the government giving out grants for people that are not capable of keeping a job to be like, you know, we know you couldn't keep that job, but we're gonna front you$50,000 because we think we think you're gonna be a better entrepreneur. Shit. You're right, bro.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:16

And what fucking universe is this person living in? You've spoken about this on earlier episodes a lot, whereas that that disassociation between delusion and reality. Like people just are really spending all of their time online. They see their peers, they see their colleagues, they see their friends, and everyone appears successful, bro. Everyone appears like they're doing amazing, and you want that same feeling. You want to be like, oh, well, this watch I got for like I want to show off this watch I got for Christmas too, because I I got I got it. And everyone's everyone, this fucking flex culture like pisses me off, bro, because everyone is appearing like they got more than what they have. And it's not reality, bro. The reality is that most people are in debt, and most people are drowning in debt, and most men are drowning in debt, and they're just not speaking up about it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:06

Yeah, I think the biggest misconception is that if they just buckled down and took care of cutting down this tree, this big ass$100,000 plus in loans and debt tree, I think they believe that they're living a sad life if they do that. But Rich, you and I both know from personal experience that once you're five or six more chops away from that motherfucking oak tree of$100,000 of debt coming down, there is no better, more liberating feeling of freedom than knowing from this point forward, I will be investing my money and my money will be making me money. We didn't even get to that side of the conversation because I've lived 35 years of my life on this side of feeling shame of being in debt and not understanding simple finances, personal finances. But for the last five years, I've been living on the other side, Rich, and that freedom, you couldn't pay for it. It's not about the money that I'm making in my whatever, 401k, my investment accounts, my investment properties, what me and you have together. It's not even about that. It's just knowing that my little dollar bills are going out there and coming back with a few other dollar bills. That is fucking crazy. Now I'm the bank. Yeah, yeah. What a beautiful feeling. I'm not talking about flexing about having investments. I'm talking about the freedom and the confidence that is the equal opposite to this feeling of debt. I wish everyone could get to that other side. So that year or two that you're sacrificing by eating shit for two years, it's only gonna get you more freedom and more happiness and more self-confidence. That is what you need to be looking forward to. If you're listening, if you've listened this far, that is what will happen. It's less about the money, it's more about the vibe. It's the feeling, the confidence that you'll have in yourself and the knowledge to know I can fucking do this. I've done this before. Why am I so passionate? Because I just did it. That's why the confidence that I have about money now, I didn't have that for the first 30 years of my life, Rich. So I really hope that the young man that's on this journey, whatever part of the journey they're at, they listen to this episode a few times, man, and they chunk it and they take whatever they feel is personal to them and they really execute it. Cause I mean, you should mention this, Rich, because you do it better than I do, but we're not necessarily a financial show. We're not giving people financial advice. I don't even feel good saying that. But I feel like what we're saying is practical. And I know you wanted to mention something about that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:45

Yeah, I mean, listen, we both still have student loans. We're you know what I mean? We're not that far removed from we're not gurus. We're not gods, yeah. We're not gurus, we're not gods. We're just guides, man. And we're just trying to let you guys know that this debt shame that young men feel is real, and you you shouldn't feel shame for it. So there you have it, just the debt, the debt of shame, the debt of shame. Listen, it's been a couple episodes by now. We appreciate everyone who's been subscribing to the YouTube, liking us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Yo, continue to subscribe to the YouTube, man, at Failures Media, and uh give us a like, check us out out of here. Peace.