SPEAKER_00 0:02

When you isolate yourself, you're in this infinite loop of delusion because you're constantly just living a frictionless life where you're you're just in a vacuum all day. So I think the mirror of life is reality. And basically, like you said, Rich, that reality is gonna reflect on you whether you like it or not. And it's gonna allow yourself an opportunity to pivot or change or make adjustments that are gonna make you happier at the end of the day, whether you like to admit it or not. So let that mirror of reality reflect on you and get out of your fucking room and get outside and let the world be your guide. Reality is so important. Reality is king, and the truth really is the only thing that matters. Today we're talking about social isolation traps. How work from home and chatbots are killing our social skills. Today's episode is for the guy who works from home. He doesn't even realize it. He's slowly disappearing because of chatbots and working from home. Work from home didn't just change your job, it killed the environments where young men used to build friendships and relationships. A common phrase I'm hearing in our community is IRL is the new luxury. And though that's cool phrasing, it fucked me up. I was thinking all week, asking myself, what does that mean? IRL is the new luxury. The problem is, is we're becoming a generation that is screen dependent between podcasts, live streams, chatbots, work meetings, multiple screens for your work meetings. I can't think of a real block of time where personally I'm not dependent on a screen for some interaction or cheap dopamine. Hell, Rich and I are talking right now from a screen, multiple screens. So if you feel like your entire life is home, work from home, go back home, go from your living room to your bedroom, and you're not getting outside literally. You're not touching grass literally, and you feel dead inside. You feel a little disconnected from the world, disconnected and socially isolated. You're not alone. This episode is for you. Rich and I are here to tell you what no one's gonna tell you. Working from home didn't make you introverted, it made you underexposed. And playing video games and watching live streamers do their thing all day is not ruining your social skills. It's just cheap dopamine on steroids. It's fun, but it's like fast food. You're sacrificing a lot for entertainment and you don't even know it. One day you're gonna get up and realize, damn, I haven't really spoken to my best friend, family, or coworker in real life in weeks and months. You've deleted the environment that builds tribe and socialization around you. It's ruining your confidence. Rich, I'm excited about this episode because I believe it leads to a lot of entry points to bigger conversations that are ruining a lot of social skills for young men. I want to start here though, because I think this was ground zero for all of this. You remember the pandemic when we first found out we had to work from home? I felt like a lot of that, a lot of the social isolation came from that period in our lives. Do you remember working from home and how it affected your life and how to affect you after the pandemic?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Yeah, man. I remember the pandemic like it was yesterday. And I felt like when the pandemic first hit and we were allowed to work from home, bro, I thought this was great. Like I don't have to commute, I don't have to go to the office. I could just wake up, work from home with my PJs on, and I never had to get dressed or commute to work. And, you know, for the first couple of months, I thought it was great. You know, years later, I actually ended up transitioning to a new job during the pandemic that was completely work from home. So I ended up working from home roughly four or five years. And for the first two years, bro, it was fun. It was great. Around year four or five, I actually started to feel like there was something happening within me, bro. So I own a home, three-bedroom, garage, the whole nine. And in my garage, I had built a gym. I also have my home office. And needless to say, I'm a homebody too, right? So it got to the point, bro, where 24 by 7, I was home. I had no reason to leave my house unless it was to get food. I had the gym in my garage. I had the home office, which was my work, and then my living space in my bedroom, which was for rest and sleep. I had no business ever having to leave my house. And I just remember that feeling of like feeling trapped, feeling like a prisoner in my own home, and ultimately feeling that isolation of like, man, I feel like I'm in a self-made prison that I can't get out of.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Rich, I'm glad you mentioned that because the way you framed it was so perfect. It almost did remind me of a lot of the research I was reading through in our pre-show prep meeting. A lot of these dudes, they're almost in too deep. And it almost seems like they've created a very comfortable, friction-free life. But almost like Quicksand, they realize that they're too deep into it to do anything about it because it's so comfortable to live a life like that. And I think you kind of gave a good sequence of how it started off harmlessly and you thought it was a good thing. And then it it dawned on you. I mean, you should speak on when was the moment you had the moment of clarity where you were like, wait, I think it's the life I've built for myself that has me in this quicksand of not touching grass, talking to people, and just being screen dependent.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah. Listen, the pandemic created a new norm for us, right? So part of the reason why I built a gym in my garage was because I thought that if I went to the gym and I touched different machines and got different germs, that I would be sick or I would get COVID. So it created this like fear-based society of like almost being afraid to go outside because you didn't want to get sick. So I think initially when the pandemic hit, a lot of people were just building their life of comfort around that, around safety, not getting sick, keeping, you know, your physical health. But I think what people didn't realize was there was going some to be some adverse effects with building that comfort, which is your mental health. What does that do to you when you're constantly looking at a screen or a monitor, you know, 24-7, when you're not meeting people for lunch, where you're not meeting people in person for any activities, when you're just completely isolated in your own home? Like, what does that do to your mental psyche in the long run? I don't think anybody knew or anybody thought of that during that time. So here we are.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

I I was reading through a lot of like younger men that were probably 15, 16, 17 when the pandemic happened. And then they kind of described their five-year period similar to yours. And I went through it as well. And I was overwhelmed with empathy when I realized that think about being 15, 16, and 17, and your entire high school connection, community. Uh, you're a teenager going through very pivotal parts of your life, and you've been put into a vacuum that's basically your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, and you're taking courses from your bedroom, your living room, maybe like a little common area and the apartment complex you live in. Or I never thought of that. I never thought of young people that are developing at a very crucial time of their lives and losing their most crucial and like important years to their personal development, the things that give them their personality, the things that give them their confidence, their social skills. It was basically robbed of them. And then they were forced to go to college or post-college or they had already graduated and been pushed into the workforce. And a lot of the workforce was saying you could work from home. So it's almost a conversation that has no solution. I think what we're trying to attack is hey, if you feel deep mood swings and you feel very upset, depressed, angry, agitated from someone that is always at home, that is the conversation of this episode. I don't think we could fix the past. If you were someone that was isolated for the past five years, my heart goes out to you. But maybe Rich and I can help you give you a roadmap to adapting to a world that is not like being home all day. And how do you get your footing back and gain your social skills and learn a world where there are people out there enjoying themselves? You can make a living, you can make friends sitting at home. It's not impossible. But Rich and I are recommending that you probably take the step that requires you to go outside because there's a lot more benefits that come from that, at least more than come from being screen dependent and being someone that is exclusively working from home.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah. And listen, feeling that feeling is normal. Like it's great if you're self-observing that you feel isolated in your own home. Work from home has created this small bubble that you're living in and you're not going out with friends as frequently as you used to, or you don't have that social circle that you once had. And we're saying that if you feel that in the pit of your stomach, bro, that is okay. That means that you're acknowledging that there's a void and that there's something missing. And it's okay to reclaim that. Like, this is what we're gonna walk through today. It's just steps on how to touch grass and get outside of your house. I remember during the pandemic, you vividly told me one time you were like, bro, I still get dressed like if I'm going to work. Because I forgot about that. Yeah, because you were like, bro, the routine, like if I lose the routine of going, taking a shower, getting dressed, putting some nice clothes on, putting cologne on, like I'm going to feel that I'm secluded to this like confined space of an apartment. And I remember you vividly you used to work from like the balcony of the house or like the patio because you just wanted to break the monotony of being in stuck in an apartment working, you know, 10, 12 hours a day.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, the the the use the good word, the monotony. That was what drove me crazy. I almost have trouble fully identifying with this topic because I am a social beast. I'm not a I'm not just like a regular social person. A lot of what makes my career and helps me make a living is my ability to communicate with everyone. So I'm fortunate in the way that I was always a social butterfly in middle school, high school. Hell, I remember my mom telling me stories about me in kindergarten where I used to disrupt other kids during nap time because I didn't want to nap. I wanted to talk to people. So I found it hard to really uh tackle this subject in a way that was me truly being empathetic to the person that is struggling now that everybody is free and they can go outside. We're not in the pandemic anymore. And I'm glad you brought that up, Rich, because me getting dressed and me getting on the phone with all my friends throughout the week was me coping with the fact that I couldn't use my superpower. I almost love your perspective on this because you have admitted to me, like, yo, I am a whole body. I am someone that enjoys a good routine where I do the same four things every day. And I think it's a surprise to people that may know you from this platform or may know you as social rich. But what is it about this subject and you as an individual that you can understand what this person that is suffering from social isolation and they feel like their friends are decaying or their their closed-knit circles are decaying, or anything that allows them to have a two-way conversation is decaying. What is it about this framing of this subject that like made you excited to want to talk about this one today?

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yeah, listen, too much of anything is is not good, right? And I found myself working from home having too much of that, which created isolation.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

But it wasn't a negative. I think that's the point. Like to you, if somebody brought it up to you, you'd be like, What's the what's the problem? Like, uh I'm getting my work done, I'm making money, I'm communicating with everybody on chat. Like, that what's the problem?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, initially it wasn't a negative, but what happened was I ended up getting a job that was fully in office five days a week. And bro, like a hero losing his superpowers, I felt like I lost the ability to communicate effectively. I lost a lot of social skills. Yeah, I lost the ability to small talk, right? I lost the abilities to just walk up to a random person and ask them a question. I just I felt so confined to myself that almost timid in a way to talk to people. And bro, social skills, interpersonal skills are like fitness. They are a muscle that if you don't flex, you will lose. And I found myself losing that skill. And that's the warning that we're sharing with uh with our viewers today, right? It's like if this is a muscle that you need to flex. If you don't talk to people, if you don't talk to your friends, if you don't have hobbies, that if you don't spend time with other people outside of your orbit, you're going to lose that interpersonal skills that you need as a human to live in everyday society.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Rich, there was a phrase that came up in my research. I'm reading it here: a low-friction lifestyle. Young men under 27 that are a product of the pandemic and work from home and school from home and everything from home, screen dependency, uh, parasocial relationships with any influencers or creators that constantly pour you what they're doing, but you're not communicating back to them. These are one-way conversations. And with the boom of AI, it's almost like it's like when cocaine turned into heroin. It was fun in the beginning, but when it turned into heroin, it became a drug that has a dependency that's a hundred times worse than the original product. And I think this 10-year slide that we're seeing for young men that were 14 10 years ago, but now they're 24 is that it went from this very not so dangerous, very friendly way of communicating where you're like, oh shit, I could just FaceTime everybody, I could work from home, I don't got to get dressed, I don't got to put the order in on, I don't got to get a haircut, I could just be on my gym shorts all day. And as the years went on, to your point, this muscle of having the ability to socialize and this muscle of being able to be in high friction environments, which is something as simple as getting in a car or a train to get to work, there's a lot of friction and resistance that comes with that that requires you to use these cognitive muscles and communication skills in order to get what you want. I think in a very zoomed-out way, Failures Podcast is kind of dealing with the young man that has dealt with a low friction lifestyle for a very long time that is set up for you not to be met with resistance. And then you bring in AI and chatbots, it's like you never have to have a problematic conversation ever again. Because where's the resistance going to come from? There's no resistance if I'm talking to someone that is literally designed code to make me feel good about what I'm saying. So I just had that epiphany right now while you were giving your honest feedback on the last six years for yourself. And it just dawned on me like, damn, that's where this phrasing low friction lifestyle comes from, because the world as it was prior to the internet was very friction full. You had to put some risk out there in order to get some reward. But now it seems like the risk is a lot lower, but the reward is a lot lower.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, and listen, that is the trap. One of the traps that we're here to warn our viewers about is with the boom of AI and chat box and Claude and Chat GPT, we have a limited resources to communicate with AI now. And what's happened is these young guys, I feel have found a void, which is having friendships, going outside, having hobbies, spending time with others, and have secluded themselves to these AI chatbots. In some instances, even having AI girlfriends, right? And the problem with that, I mean, there's a lot of problems with that, but one of the problems with By the way, I'm sorry, that's not a girlfriend.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

That's a screen friend. That's not a girlfriend. Carry on. Yeah. A girlfriend is the best. You can feel her, you can touch her. Yeah. With her consent in the relationship, you can get freaky with her. You know what I mean? Like an AI chatbot, not gonna do that for you. An AI girlfriend, not gonna do that for you. That's your screen friend, not your girlfriend.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

There's certainly some uh physical limitations with an AI girlfriend. Oh, yeah, Rich.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

It's fun having a real girlfriend. I just want to make that very clear.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

No, yeah, that's good uh clarification. But listen, the AI is trained to satisfy you. It's going to validate any bias that you have. It's going, its whole mission is how do I please my master, right? If the AI is the slave and you're the master, how do I please my master so he keeps using me? That is the only purpose of AI is to be useful to you so you keep coming back. And what happens is if you fall into that matrix of just seeking validation from an AI chatbot, and then you create this strange platonic relationship with this piece of code, you forget that the rest of the world exists. You're like, oh, I don't need friends. Every piece of information I need is here in this chat bot, right? Everything that I have a question about, I get the answer to in this chat bot. Every joke that I make to this chat bot, it seems like they laugh at all my jokes. Bro, that's fucking weird, bro. It blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

It's sci-fi, but it's like this is where we're at in society, Jess. You've seen the movie Her, right? Yeah. We're here now. We're here, bro. We're here now. We're here. And if you haven't seen the movie Her, Rich, I don't know if you want to give a summary. I'll give my shot at it, but it's a it's a sci-fi movie that is in the not so near future. And I think it came out like 15 years ago, 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

It's so bizarre that it's a film about a guy who just went through a breakup and he gave his artificial intelligence almost like a Siri replica at the time, because Siri was the most advanced social tool that was artificial intelligence on your phone. And he loaded all of his information into the Siri, basically, and it was basically something with a voice, AI with a voice and a very pleasing voice. It was Scarlett Johansson's voice, and he developed this very harmless relationship just to get over his extent into a very addictive relationship where the AI became his essential companion, but a clone for the romantic relationship he had with his ex. And what's weird is this movie came out 10 to 15 years ago. But when I think about it now, ChatGPT has a function where I don't even have to text or write anything into it. I can speak to it and that soft, delicate voice that comes back could be programmed in a way that it is a woman. Yeah. And this is a fact. The dude, this what's the CEO's to Chat GPT? What's his name? Sam Altman. Sam Altman. Yeah. This is a fact. Sam Altman tried to pay Scarlett Johansson to be the official voice of Chat GPT voice. If that is not a full circle moment of what these guys have in mind for the not so distant future, I'll let you figure out that riddle. But that is a fact. Scarlett Johansson not only said no, but she filed a lawsuit for her IP for the voice. If you listen to the AI chat GPT voice, it sounds like Scarlett Johansson. Yeah, similar, yeah. I'm not saying Sam Altman is evil. We're not going down that route. Rich and I definitely use these tools for our best advantages. I'm saying it's like a drug. If you don't dose at the right limit and you don't understand how powerful it can be if there's overdependency, it can be something that can start harming your life and you won't even know it. And I'm trying not to sound hyperbolic, Rich, but I like that you identified work from home and the pandemic as ground zero and how we got here. And the more I read about the people that are affected by this, the more it feels like an emergency to me. And that's not me being hyperbolic for the show. I almost feel this deep, deep empathy for anybody that's struggling with this, and it's gonna get worse.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah. I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said these guys have built a low friction lifestyle for themselves. And what happens with that low friction is you don't want any negative forces when you output information to the world. Well, what do I mean by that? When you input something into a chat, AI Ba, there's no judgment.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

This person is not judging you. I like the way you said it before. And please go into that a little bit deeper because I feel like you have more knowledge here. When you said it's basically code designed to keep you on the platform, break that down a little bit more, Rich, for the young man that is disagreeing with you because he does find. Emotional support from something like a chat bot?

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, I mean, listen, we did a whole entire episode on algorithms and chat AI bots. And, you know, what we found, and this is something that we also knew, is that TikTok, you know, all these platforms are designed to keep you on platform. And the AI chat bot is no different. They do pattern recognition, right, based on what you input. And it gives you the best probability of what it thinks you want to hear based on different text and patterns, right? It's an algorithm that's been skewed in a way to keep you on platform, keep you coming back for more information, validate your bias. It's oftentimes has been incorrect in history, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Like we've Yeah, it's called hallucinating. It hallucinates.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

It hallucinates, right? And it confidently tells you the wrong answers. Yes. So think about the dangers, bro, of you overcommitting yourself to a relationship with the AI chatbot who can give you false information and can hallucinate. And you feel like you have this very strong bond with this piece of code. It's only going to put you down the rabbit hole of having more isolation, bro. It just pulls you further away from stepping out that door of your apartment or your house and touching grass and talking to people. And, bro, I think everything has a negative effect to it. The other side of this is think about what you're missing out in life when you don't step outside and you don't touch grass. You don't have the ability to network with people. You don't have the ability to seek a mentor. You lose friendships. You lose camaraderie. You lose a social circle. Being social is baked into our DNA, who we are as human beings and as a species. Like we are social beings. So taking that equation out of a human being is basically dehabilitating them, you know, from living a fruitful life.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah, Rich, I mean, you frame that so well. I want to give it like proper marketing titles. So at least the person that's on another screen watching a basketball game and listening to this podcast at the same time, I want to disrupt their pattern and give them really kitschy, easy to remember phrases so they can walk away with something because God knows that they are overwhelmed with information. I'm included in this. I know you, Rich. You're included with this. If we wanted to, we can overwhelm ourselves with analysis, paralysis, and too much data to make one point. I want to make the big difference between screen friends and real friends. Screen friends are the social influencers and the Twitch streamers and the celebrities and athletes that you admire that have podcasts or social media platforms that you can go from watching an MMA fight with your favorite screen friend, and then you can listen to him live stream after the fight on Twitch, which is also your screen friend, and then you can see him post a few images from behind the scenes of the fight on Instagram, that's also your screen friend. And then you go on a Discord where everybody's talking about this guy, and it's a whole bunch of friends and sycopheds of that person that have also never met that person that are in this chat talking about it. There's nothing wrong with that. I suffer from that. I do this often. But I want you to know the difference between a screen friend and a real friend. Because your real friend is the guy that is just like you. He's a little awkward. You guys are birds of a feather. You guys like the same shit. His life may not be too popping, your life might not be too popping, but you guys could just hang out and watch the fight and then talk about the fight together in real life. I don't have a specific point because I know that doesn't sound as sexy and as fun as watching your favorite MMA fighters live stream after the fight, but there is a lot that you're leaving on the table when you don't socialize outside of your screen friends. And when I say screen friends, I also mean screen girlfriends, but we got into that earlier. It's a big difference between a girl you admire online versus a girl you met at seventh period algebra. Like it's very different.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Just if you've never seen their legs, they're not really your friends. Bro, you're used to seeing floating heads, right? I remember being in meetings at work, right? And just being glued to Zoom, bro. Like my life was Zoom for three years. That when I saw that person, like in real life, IRL, I was like, damn, this person's a lot taller than I thought they were. Or like, damn, this person got big ass feet.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah. Listen, I might have said this on a previous show, and excuse me for repeating it. The greatest compliment slash insult I ever got was someone from Scooter Bronze management team met me in real life during an award show, and they dapped me up, they sized me up, and they said, damn, I thought you were a lot taller. I was like, the fuck? He was like, no, it's just the way you communicate and how like bold and confident you sound in the meetings. I only worked with these people during the pandemic. For him to say that was a compliment, but it was a backhand compliment. He was almost saying, I almost spoke too tall for my actual body. And that is a perfect example of what you're saying. There's women that I thought were attractive that I would speak to all the time on Zoom during work meetings, or I would just hang out with friends. Remember, we're doing like birthday parties and stuff like on Zoom? Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Bro, they people have had their entire graduations, from on Zoom, bro. Like, how sad.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

It's crazy. Now, I I do want to get back to a point you made earlier, Rich. And I'm going to rattle off hard data from Pew Research. If you don't believe us, go check Pew Research. Very credible platform. I'm going to read a few things, Rich. These are the buckets that men are on an aggressive decline in the last 10 years. Dating, massive decline. Sex lives, massive decline. Chronic feeling of invisibility. I don't exist to other people. Decline. Body movement. Actual physical body movement, decline, depression, decline, socialization, decline, a drop in close friends, decline, a drop in acquaintances, obesity. Employers are saying men under the age of 26 lack problem solving skills and social communication skills. Pew research. I'm not making this up. What is on an incline? Screen time up. Um, solo entrepreneurship, where you make $400 a month, meaning you're not actually an entrepreneur, but you're trying really hard to do it by yourself, not taking shots, just research, incline. Porn, all-time high. OnlyFans, all-time high, sex robots, all-time high. People using AI companions as romantic relationships, all-time high. They are developing apps where you can now have an AI girlfriend where you can chat with, and then you have the option to meet her as a physical robot. That is on an incline. Businesses that are getting the most investment, anger towards corporations, government, groups or women, lack of trust for authority, all on an incline. To me, the answer is pretty obvious. What's your interpretation, Rich? This is all coming from hard research.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Bro, I hate to sound all doom and gloom, but I feel like everything you read off sounds like the dissemination of like mankind and society. Like, we're the greatest nation on earth. The United States is the greatest nation on earth because of what we've been able to build together through the Industrial Revolution, through the dot-com era, you know, through the AI boom, everything we've been able to create as humans collectively, as a unit, has made us, our society, better. And everything you read off is like peeling the layers off of that unity one by one. And I'm almost scared for what the next 20 years of our society looks like if we're going to continue to be isolated, not work together, right? And be more reliant on remote work, remote friendships, and artificial friendships, right? Like that's what we need to call it, our artificial friendships, because it's not a real friendship. It's scary, bro.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

It's a shadow life. It's a shadow social life. It's a simulation of what is reality. And I promise you, Rich and I did a full, a full AI episode where we were probably the most positive in the self-development category on the subject of AI. Am I right or wrong, Rich? I feel like we took a very positive note on that episode. Because the narrative was AI is coming for your job. AI is gonna, we're not that platform. We don't fish for fear to try to get people to watch. But this particular subject, artificial, what did you call it? Because I was a regular area to fame it. Just artificial relationships. Artificial relationships is one that with every episode, Rich and I wind up doing our research pre-show, and we get to the same conclusion. It's two grown-ass men. Rich is 37, I'm 39, and we're looking at each other with like a question mark emoji above our heads where we're like, bro, what is the solution to this? I almost have trouble talking about this because, like you said, I'm I'm equally in a state of panic as you are. And that's not being hyperbolic. You can't make this up. The last five years, sex, dating, depression, isolation, social, chronic invisibility. I didn't even know that fucking existed. Chronic invisibility, what does that mean? That means that when you step out into the world, you literally feel unseen every day. Bro, that can't be healthy. And then you look at the other end of the spectrum, what's on the uptick? Anger, frustration. Those two graphs are correlated, even though one is going up and one is going down. Rich, what comes to mind? Because I know you're raising a teenager, and we are, by the way, we are young men still trying to find ourselves. I know we're older, but we're not, we're not fully done products. What comes to mind when you hear that and you see that information?

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Man, for starters, I feel like you need to self-diagnose yourself and see what it is that's missing. Some of these guys are feeling all these feelings that you just mentioned, Juss, especially the like not having sex part, and saying to themselves, damn, I can't find a girlfriend. Well, why do you think that is? Because you're always home, because you're probably on dating apps, scrolling, you know, 100 to 200 uh swipes with no emotions attached to any of the swipes that you're that you're partaking in, right? So you have to look from within and understand that there's an issue. If you do feel isolated, if you do feel lonely, if you do feel like there's a void missing, and you're turning to chat bots or an AI girlfriend or less platonic IRL relationships, there's a void in your life, bro. You have to acknowledge that there's a void in order to fix it. That's something that immediately comes to mind for me.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

The one thing that I kept running into, which I actually agree with, it's the feeling of being heard and not feeling judgment. That was the number one thing that came back. Even for people that are working from home, because employment is a means to an end so you can make money. And what we found with people that are comfortable consistently working from home is that they feel a lack of judgment and they feel heard because a lot of the conversations are reduced to a 30-minute review with your boss or a small team. So it's almost like we're over-optimizing for comfort and efficiency. But the friction that comes with going to work and running into your coworker or having a drink with your boss at the post-event gathering where everybody went to a bar and let out, that is what is at the core of this, I don't want to say issue, but dependency on frictionless communication. It's people want to feel heard. They want to feel seen. And the direct path to that is visual video conferences and um AI chatbots because there's efficiency in it. And I don't know how to solve for that because I relate to that. I get if someone's going through something and they want immediate feedback, of course you're gonna speak to something that's gonna make you feel good about yourself and address your concern. But the only thing I can say is it's more about the action that comes after the feedback. Because even if you had a close friend that never disagreed with you, chances are they're gonna tell you, like, hey man, I get it. You're overlooked at your job and you feel insignificant, you feel chronically invisible. The only way to change that is by taking action. And that's how you become more visible. I think the loop is infinite when you're only speaking to a screen or you're only speaking to a chat bot that is designed to keep you on platform, as you mentioned. So I don't know if we have a solution, but I do know action beyond the comfort of getting that feedback. Nothing wrong with the feedback, but take action. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Yeah, and no, that's a great point. And listen, these tools can be used for good or for evil, right? Like they can go either way. I think about this in two ways, right? One is the time that you spend on an AI chatbot can be productive. You could 10x your productivity, you can have it write you essays, you can have it help you create a business plan, et cetera, et cetera, right? And that's gonna further your journey and your productivity. The other end is you talking shit to an AI chatbot, right? Like, what's the latest news or just some low-hanging fruits of information? And you don't go outside to have communications with friends or colleagues to get that information. Like, to me, bro, I think there's lost opportunity when you don't have the ability to go have lunch with someone, and that person brings someone else, and you casually share a business idea, and that third person is like, oh, I I would invest in that. I'm actually on the market to invest in that, and boom, a business is born. You don't get that ability to have that spark of opportunity with someone if you're not meeting people in person. It's not gonna happen sitting from home behind a screen.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

It's just not. The way you frame that was great. And what I would add for a visual metaphor is it's a crutch. A crutch can be helpful, or I'll give you a better one. They're training wheels. If you don't know how to ride a bike, get on a bike with a training wheel. It allows you stability while you're moving. But at some point, you have to remove the training wheels so you can understand what it is to ride on a bike with just two wheels, and the two wheels and driving through traffic and real people on the street, that's reality. Reality is gonna give you the friction you need to find out who you are and what you are, given that the circumstances are not perfect, there's some friction. And to Rich's point, as you move forward and you slowly reduce your dependency on screens and chatbots for that comfort, the training wheels, which is fine. But you're gonna find another flock of people that are also on bikes, and they've learned just recently learned how to remove the training wheels. And that group of people becomes your flock. Those are your friends because you guys are experiencing the same friction in the world together, and the problem solving is based on the flock of friends you have and you guys giving each other feedback from real life resistance from the world. The resistance is not something to be avoided. The friction is not something to be avoided. I understand the common theme for all of these research papers is yeah, but I feel judged when I go to my parents. I feel judged when I go to my aunt and uncle. I feel like my teachers don't listen to me. They just speak at me. This is why I have a dependency to these tools. And I love that you use that word, Rich, and I want you to build on it. They're tools, but the tools can't become the overall thing that you always go to because at some point you have to learn how to do it yourself. I'm trying to thread the needle here because I don't even know if I'm giving the best advice, but I'm trying to be patient and walk them through the problem.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

You know, in hearing you speak, it almost sounds like there's uh some sort of like uh societal transition that's happening. Where if you do acknowledge that you're in isolation, you're staying at home because of work from home circumstances, and you're starting to go outside and touch grass, like now you need to re-educate yourself how to be social, how to communicate with people, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Like it's crazy that you're saying that, but it's true. I could promise, I want you to resay what we just said for our YouTube Shorts. What you're saying is something that people are gonna indulge in because it is a secret. And you're uncovering the secret.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah, the secret is we're re-educating ourselves on how to be social. We're acknowledging that work from home and the pandemic has kept us in isolation, and now we're stepping outside of our houses and re-educating ourselves on how to be social, how to talk to people, how to communicate effectively, how to have more camaraderia amongst colleagues or coworkers or friends. And that's the big dirty secret. And, you know, one thing that I've done just that I've like adjusted because I find myself, I'm like, damn, I never thought of this to be a problem. But if I do want to be more social when I step outside, I should probably tweak this. And is taking my headphones off when I'm amongst a lot of people. Headphones, AirPods specifically, are a human reflector when it comes to you wanting to communicate with a group of people. They see you with headphones on, they're like, oh, he's either on a phone call listening to music or doesn't want to be bothered. Bro, if you want to talk to people and you want to communicate with people and you want to be more social and you're outside, take the headphones off because it's uninviting when you have the headphones in.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Serendipity. That's what taking your headphones off leads to. These moments where you accidentally bump into someone, you accidentally notice somebody's wearing your favorite sports team, you accidentally see that someone is also an MMA UFC fighting fan, you sign up for a run club, you sign up for a jujitsu class, you're allowing serendipity to take place where everything you were negative about when it comes to socializing, your whole world can change with just one conversation. It could be a really cool girl at the local Dwayne Reed or CVS or wherever you live where you're getting deodorant and some snacks. Yeah, you can order that on Amazon and have it delivered to you at no cost. Or you can get up, go outside, comb your hair a little bit, and go to the bodega, go to the grocery store, or go to Dwayne Reed or CVS, and who knows, you might spark a conversation. And I think what you're saying, Rich, is taking your headphones off is just a signal to the rest of the world, like, hey, I'm outside, I'm observing, I'm enjoying. Don't be a fucking weirdo, don't be staring at everybody, but like I'm plugged into reality. I'm not physically outside, but I'm I'm inside of my phone that's in my pocket. It's a fuck you to any opportunity of socializing with anybody outside of your screen friends, your artificial friends that are in your pocket. When you take your headphones off, it's a metaphor and a signal to the rest of the world. Hey, I'm touching grass and I'm a part of what's going on here. Remember, I started the episode by using a phrase that I'm seeing a lot more in the marketing world. They are telling us, marketers, hey, IRL is the new luxury. Let's pivot away from digital advertising and let's create activations where people can go because they desire this so much. It is the vegetable to the highly sugared diet of most of these young people. If you could put a program together that allows them to go outside and meet with like-minded people, your program will succeed because they need it so much. That's not irony, Rich. That's research. There is an appetite for people that need human connection, need IRL in real life connection, and they're not getting it. And I love how you frame that. The first signal to the world should be I'm taking my AirPods off, I'm putting them in my pocket, I'm gonna go about my day hoping to, you know, experience the world as it's happening. It sounds hypocritical because if you saw me outside, I'm probably gonna have my headphones on. But it's advice to the chef, and Rich and I are the chefs of this show. We need to take two scoops of what we're saying. You want more of life, take your headphones off. Experience life as is.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yes. And I feel like you just said the ultimate fucking cheat code that is of this whole episode. And I think this is the solution, Jess, if we're trying to solve for this issue. It's attachment to reality. Everything you do up until this point has to be rooted in reality. We're here now, Jess. The robots are here. They're not coming anymore. They are here. And when you log into X or any social media application, it's full of bots and it's full of information and disinformation and artificial intelligence, AI generated information. And you know, you could be on a website talking to a customer service representative, and you don't know whether that's a human or an AI. Crazy. We are here. So everything that you do up until this point, if you're trying to solve for being at home, feeling isolated, feeling like you have no voice, feeling like you have no friends, you have to do things that get you closer and more connected to reality, to human reality. That is going to help fill that void that you feel of feeling in your a self-made prison of isolation. And bro, I cannot emphasize that enough. That word right there, bro, reality, that is the north star of this entire episode.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

The new rule is keep human mirrors around you if you want to avoid social isolation traps. Metaphorically, what I'm saying is if you've gained weight or you look like a goddamn mess, you would never know if you didn't have any mirrors in your house. Because you can go about your day thinking you know what you look like. But if you don't have any reflection of what you actually look like, you're going to figure it out when it's too late. Going out into the world and experiencing the friction of other people, friends, family, coworkers in real life, those are mirrors. The resistance of the world and the teasing and the joking and people being like, oh shit, you got to stand on your shirt, or damn, you gained a lot of weight. Those are mirrors being held up to you by other people that help you course correct and make sure you don't go too far in a direction that is delusion. And when you isolate yourself, you're in this infinite loop of delusion because you're constantly just living a frictionless life where you're absorbing content that agrees with you. You're not speaking to anyone. You don't even know if what you're saying is relevant or funny or cool or interesting. You're just in a vacuum all day. So I think the mirror of life is reality. And basically, like you said, Rich, that reality is gonna reflect on you whether you like it or not. And it's gonna allow yourself an opportunity to pivot or change or make adjustments that are gonna make you happier at the end of the day, whether you like to admit it or not. So let that mirror of reality reflect on you and get out of your fucking room and get outside and let the world be your guide. Reality is so important. Reality is king, and the truth really is the only thing that matters. And I know we're getting to the more preacher part of the episode, but I felt like we were swarming around the problem because I really couldn't identify it. But Rich, you framed it in such a good way. One thing that I'm looking at right now, which is in our notes, is people saying, work from home saved my life. It allowed me to do more for my family. It allowed me to save time and do more for myself. And I want to believe that because, like you said in the beginning, it sounded right. But why is it that all the research is showing the opposite in terms of work from home saving your life?

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah, listen, I mean, I think certainly the flexibility of work from home has helped people become better parents, right? Like you have more time for doctor's appointments, dropping off your kids in school. And it does allow for a little bit of more flexible life. Where I think the poison comes in, and you highlighted this a couple of times already, but I feel like it's important to re-emphasize this is the zero friction lifestyle that is a byproduct of working from home, is you end up not working on yourself enough, right? Because everything is so cushy, everything is so comforting that you forget to study, pursue uh certification, go after a new degree, learn a new skill, go, you know what I mean, like go outside and challenge yourself amongst different athletes. If you'd like to run marathons, etc. etc. Like you can't run a marathon at home. You know what I'm saying? You have to step outside. God damn it. That was so bro.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

You can't run a marathon. I mean, there's gonna be some dickhead that's gonna tell you he has a Peloton and you're like, oh my gosh, this is a well actually. Yeah, Rich. Again, I'm fighting back a lot of aggressive, I want to shake somebody type of energy because I want to be empathetic.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

And I'm trying, but no, I mean, listen, I like the steel man argument you've raised because I do feel like work from home has allowed people the flexibility to do more positive things in their life. But just everything is about balance, bro. And you can't live this flexible, zero friction lifestyle, but also feel like you're secluded, lonely, and miserable, right? Where's the balance in that? You have to find the balance that can cater to both. And for some people, it's been more of a hybrid setup, right? They work from home two days out of the week, they're at in the office for three days, and that's the balance, right? They get those three days of flexibility, but and then they get those two days at home. I'm fortunate enough to have a little bit of that flexibility in my own situation, and it has helped. But I'm telling you just nothing has replaced the ability to go grab some Chipotle with my coworker and talk shop and vent about life or work or anything, right? It's so therapeutic when you can meet up with the homies and just vent about something over lunch or dinner or some drinks, and it releases this like stress that and this burden that you're carrying of like feeling lonely and miserable and monotonous that to me is invaluable.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Something that came up, which you just made me think of, was for an introverted man or someone that has literally pre-pandemic didn't necessarily have the social muscle, somebody that's not like proactively starting conversations with everyone. This is where I have to try to build that empathy because if you think about that guy, he's saying, Hey, even before the pandemic, I wasn't trying to start conversations. But I did go to middle school and high school where a lot of the socialization was happening for me. Meaning all I had to do was physically bring my ass to school, and there were always people around. So I didn't have to curate my life to go and find flocks of people. I was able to get cool with the kids that were fucking with anime because there was an anime book club at school. Or I got cool with the dudes that were in band because a lot of my friends were already in band. So it's like these curated communities and smaller tribes that are built into high school and clubs that when you get a little older, it all goes away and you have to put effort into finding these clubs. And I never thought about it from the introvert standpoint. The response there and the steel man argument there would be like, hey, it's not that I'm not trying, it's that I'm I'm truly introverted. I don't feel the motivation to go out and make friends. I don't feel the motivation to go out. I actually don't feel like I'm missing anything. But there are times where I do feel depressed. And you've brought this up in the past, Rich. It's like fast food, right? Like you think you can't tell in the moment, but it is having a long-term effect on you. And I just want your feedback on the introvert because that's one that I truly feel sorry for. And I wish there was a way that we could help them because they don't have that pre-curated community to go and like try and socialize with.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Yeah, I mean, listen, I think your phone, what's in your pocket, has made everything easy, right? Everything you could ever want is on that device. So you're right, you do feel like you're not missing out on anything. All the news, your friends' chatter, all the social media posts of what your friends are up to, it's all on your phone. So you really feel like you're not missing out on anything. Listen, I've suffered from this too. Just I consider myself a little bit more of an introvert than an extrovert. But what what I've found is all the best opportunities that I've ever had in life has been when I've been extroverted in the way I communicate with people. That has always brought me opportunity. The ability to speak eloquently during a job interview has landed me the job, right? The ability to be a smooth talker to a woman has allowed me to make that girl my girlfriend. You know what I mean? So the ability to be an effective communicator, step outside of your comfort zone and talk to people, that brings them limited opportunity. So you, if you're an introvert like myself, you have to find a way to adjust that knob because I promise you, bro, people don't bite. Yeah. You know, just be confident in what you're speaking.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

And I think being social comes at a spectrum. And you made me think about it, using yourself as an example. It's like swimming. Some people say they hate swimming, people say they don't know how to swim. Some people say they don't enjoy being in the water, so they don't want to swim at all. And then there are people that truly cannot swim due to some limitation physically. Being social is like that spectrum of swimming that I just said. 90% of the people who are in the world of I don't like communicating. I've never been with someone that enjoyed communicating. I have a social battery and it goes low very quickly. Or I just fucking hate fake people and I hate communicating. All plausible, but you're still not the 10% that is socially inept. People that literally cannot communicate because they're crippled by it. You've stolen some handicap that people have and have used it as a life raft for you not wanting to learn how to swim or socialize. And I love that Rich is on this platform because I'd be a fucking hypocrite if I was trying to help someone be more social. It would take you three minutes around my family to realize I come from a social family and it's an advantage that I've had, and it comes a lot of disadvantages, to be honest. I can't focus for more than 20 minutes. But I do believe the analogy between swimming and socializing is relevant because when you put a label on yourself, you just cut yourself off from the world, and now it becomes a confirmation bias. And what Rich and I were saying earlier in the episode, which is more relevant right now, is that a frictionless life will allow you to live in that bias. And now you can say from 27 all the way to 87, man, I just never was somebody who was social. But shout out to my parasocial relationships with all the influencers and the content creators that I watch all day. Shout out to all the podcasts that I keep in my ear all day. Shout out to the OnlyFans and the porn stars that upload their content that allow me to get my rocks off so I don't feel like sexually frustrated. Listen, I'm not making this up. I read all the research that came from Pew Research, a credible platform. These are all the anecdotes and the false solutions to a lot of real problems. And it starts with confirmation bias. You just accept that that's who you are and you don't fight for getting on the other side. And Rich, excuse the tangent, but you made me think of it because you are someone that has had to force yourself to be a little bit more uncomfortable to get more money.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

To build out your family, to get a new girl. Like, you know, these things came with a beautiful reward. It wasn't all for nothing.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

Yeah, listen, you you hit the nail right on the head and you said, I think you said the primary thing, which is social battery. We all have a social battery, right? So the this idea of you thinking that you don't need to be social because you don't know how to be social, bro. You have a social battery, which means that you need to be social in order for you to feel alive and feel like a human being.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

If you're not charging that battery, I look I I like the workout analogy you said before. If you could rephrase it with that one, because you you're saying being socializing is like a muscle.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Yeah, bro. It's like a muscle that you have to flex. And if you don't use it, you lose it. And I lost it, you know, five years working from home, being remote, and on that sixth year that I had to go back to work in office and do presentations, speak in in board meetings, uh, speak to other coworkers, be on Zoom calls with, you know, over 150 people and go through PowerPoint slides. Like I felt that I wasn't delivering the way I knew how. And it was because my social skills were suppressed in the five years that I was talking to smaller groups, you know, two to five people per Zoom call. And I feel like I lost that social muscle that I should have been flexing the entire time. But, you know, like any muscle, you work on it, you improve, and you get better.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

You mentioned this in an old episode, and I just want to bring it back. You start where you're at. You can't look at somebody that's further ahead and assume that you're gonna be there on day one. We discussed in our earlier episodes, Rich, a lot of our personal achievements that were the first time in our lives where we felt like we weren't failures and we weren't whatever society said we were. And a lot of your personal achievements came with moments where you conquered a mountain that was based off of these limitations you had in yourself. And the one that comes to mind, and you've mentioned it before, was when you had to present to the whole company it during a retreat and you had to present on a stage. For someone that is identifying themselves as someone with a low social battery and a bit more introverted, that's one hell of a mountain to conquer. But you were thrown into that. Imagine if you knew that that was gonna happen for six months, it would be a different story.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

Oh, yeah. Listen, I can't wait for our viewers to see our first episode and then see this one and just see how we've progressed in the way we're able to communicate and and record these. We sounded like shit our first episode. You gotta listen to the the 10 episodes we didn't release before we released our first episode. It was terrible, right? But I think we came into it understanding that we had to start where we were at and that we would get better over time. And I I still think that we're getting better, you know, every episode. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

Right now, while we're speaking, we're getting better week by week. Before we cut away, I do want to have one last closing conversation that I think is gonna hit home with you because you have a teenage son. So part of that PUEL survey, and it was extensive, was the dependency on chat bots and not speaking to other people. So I do want to read this. So they did a survey and they said, okay, what's the reason why you don't enjoy having tough conversations with your family, your parents? Why is it that you don't like having uncomfortable conversations with a girl you may like or a female friend that you want to build a relationship with? Why is it that you feel uncomfortable having conversations with even your friends from school or your coworkers? What is it about these tough conversations that lead you to going to a chat bot? Like, what's stopping you from having the tough conversation versus going to the chat bot that makes you feel heard? And these were the responses in order. I do want your response. They don't tease me for being honest and vulnerable. They don't reject me and leave me on red. They don't overlook my idea and speak over me. They don't tell me I'm not funny when I'm trying to be funny or I'm just trying to lighten the mood. What is it about those responses that comes to mind when you think about why they chose chatbot over human interaction?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

Yeah, listen, if you designed your life, like you said, in a way where there is no friction, there's no judgment, you've created a limitation in your growth. You have to be comfortable with people telling you that you're not good at something in order for you to want to be better at something. You think Michael Jordan like wasn't told that he wasn't a good basketball player? Every time they shitted on Michael Jordan or another basketball player told him something negative, bro, he used it as fuel and he used it against him, right? So this idea of not wanting to share things with friends, girlfriends, or colleagues for the sake of feeling judged, it's you putting a limitation on your growth. At the end of the day, this is feedback. Right, wrong, feels good, doesn't feel good. It's it's all irrelevant. It's feedback that you're getting from your peer group. And if you actually care about growth, about self-development and being disciplined, you will take this feedback and make the proper adjustments you need to make to continue getting better.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

Rich, there's a uh a Hebrew phrase that I came across when I was doing this research, and I love it because we're not religious, and I'm not gonna push religion down anybody, but L-M it, E-L-E-M-E-T. I'd like our viewers to Google it. And the phrase is God is in the truth. And I'll remove God for a second because this is not that platform. But I like the phrasing because what they've said for hundreds and hundreds of years in the past is the truth is what everyone is looking for. And reality, when you live in a reality, and that has become a common phrase in this whole episode, and I I I applaud you for pointing that out, Rich. Reality is the antidote to dependency on screens, dependency on cheap dopamine, dependency on losing social skills and being socially isolated. Reality is the king. But the reason why reality is the king is because you're trying to get to the truth. And the truth sometimes is you're not funny. Or you're not as funny as you think you are. The truth is, is you're not as handsome or good at basketball as you think you are. But reality is the wave pushing you back to the baseline that is the truth. And you made me think of LM it, Rich, because I've seen that phrase before, and it's one of my favorite phrases. I've even considered it tatting it on my body. That's how much I enjoy this idea of reminding myself at 39 years old hey, if you shot for something big in your life and you didn't get it, LM it, bro. Like, God is in the truth. Don't deny yourself that reality so you can recalibrate and go back out there and get what you want. And there's nothing wrong with getting your truth because it might lead you to your happiness. You won't know if you take rejection, the first sign of rejection, as a way to retreat into a level of comfort that is a chat bot that Rich, I would like you to summarize because you said it way more elegantly than I have. It's designed to make you feel good. That's not the truth, that's not reality. And I think I get emotional even talking about it because I do feel bad for somebody that is seeking comfort, but there is a lack of truth and comfort.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

Yeah, bro. Resistance, bro, there is growth and resistance. You can't ride a wave as a surfer without that wave coming at you and you're feeling that resistance of the water.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

And imagine the feeling if you ride the wave or you conquer that wave one time.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Yeah, bro. There's growth. You ride that bitch to the end. There you have it, man. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. Uh, we're not trying to sell you anything, we're a self-help platform, but we're not here selling you courses or or any Patreon. We're just here to help. If you like this video, please check out more of our videos on our YouTube at Failures Media. And give us a like, man. Check us out. Peace out.